« Who Watches The Forgers? | Main | Under Pressure »
Either A Defense Or Else An Attack On Barbara Ehrenreich
Henry Farrell and Kevin Drum defend Barbara Ehrenreich against Brad Delong's attacks. I'm not sure whether my thoughts on this controversy constitute a defense or an attack, but here they are. The 2000 Nation piece Brad quotes from is by far the most coherent case for Ralph Nader that I've ever read.
Her point is that if you think the US political system is fundamentally broken, which she does, then it makes no real sense to be voting for the Democrats just because they're better in some ways. If a system is broken, the system needs to be fixed, and the Democratic Party as an institution is one of the system's key pillars and isn't going to do it. The would-be system-fixers need to start a new movement somewhere out there on the grassroots and they're more likely to do it with the Republicans in power. This is correct as a general analysis, and her empirical predictions have been largely born out -- the Bush administration has led to a resurgence of interest in organization and institution-building on the left. In particular, Bush's proclivity for taking the imperial tendencies in American foreign policy to extremes has started to give fundamental criticism of the entire post-Coldwar national security posture its first mainstream hearing ever, as far-left critics find that they have unexpected friends in the CATO Institute and can make hit documentary films. (Lenin -- an absolutely brilliant political strategist if someone lacking in morals and capacity for good governance -- had this all figured out long ago).
So that's the defense. The attack, though, is this: What on earth could have led a person to believe in the late 1990s that something was fundamentally broken with the American political system?
This is the same system that was for a long time marred by chattel slavery, after all, and for a hundred years after that by a period in which one major region was groaning under the yoke of a one-party apartheid state (to say nothing of racial problems in the north). That system proved amenable to incremental reform from within by major stakeholders. And despite much moaning by folks on the left, it simply isn't the case that since 1981 the United States has moved backwards to its pre-Great Society state. Instead, a rising tide of conservatism has succeeded in rolling back a few of the Great Society's innovations, while leaving its most important monuments (Medicare, Medicaid, Civil Rights) untouched and allowing a few further steps forward (gay rights, EITC, the Americans with Disabilities Act, CHIP and S-CHIP, and some new environmental rules, to name a few). Ehrenreich's big complaint seems to be that Bill Clinton signed the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Restoration Act (PWORA, a.k.a. "welfare reform") in 1996, abolishing Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) and establishing instead Temporary Assistance to Needy Familiies (TANF). I would say that TANF, for all its flaws, is something of an improvement over AFDC, but if people want to disagree I'll respect that. What is not at all a respectable belief, however, is the notion that AFDC was either so fabulous (the poor weren't actually doing so hot in the Reagan years, as you'll recall) or, frankly, so important (both are very small programs) that its abandonment in favor of TANF is reasonable grounds for this sort of radical dissilusionment with conventional politics.
You had people in contemporary Iran who thought for a while that they could pursue reform from within the existing system and who have now mostly concluded that this was wrong -- the system was too resistant to change -- and it was time to take a radical stance. That's a fine and proper thing to do -- radicalism has its place -- but it's Iran. I don't want to be too rose-tinted here, but to look back across the breadth of American history and then look again at the past ten years and decide that now -- now -- is the time to abandon our faith in the slow-but-steady gruntwork of two-party politics and incremental reform is just perverse.
But Ehrenreich should be praised for having a much better understanding (or, at least, a much better capacity to articulate her understanding) of what the purpose of a Nader vote is and for appreciating the general logic of her views. But where did she come by these views? The reporting in Nickle and Dimed struck me as an excellent case for sticking to it, and realizing that little things like a small boost in the EITC or the minimum wage or minor decreases in housing hosts or slightly better enforcement of the Fair Labor Standards Act or somewhat more energetic union organizing campaigns could make a big difference in the lives of people who have things pretty rough right now. Ehrenreich thinks they'll have to wait until after the Revolution. But why would she think that?
UPDATE: Epistemology's comment (see below) to the effect that this time it's okay to vote for Nader because Kerry's ahead right now and he'll win comfortably has me very afraid. Very. In re: the Civil War point, what I would say is this. Abraham Lincoln secured election under the normal procedure heading up a party that was basically the old Whigs under a new name. It was the reactionaries of the Confederacy who decided that the system was broken and they tried to seceed. In the course of preserving the union -- the system -- the system was reformed and slavery brought to an end. Indeed, it was even brought to an end in an incremental way -- manumission with compensation in the District of Columbia followed by emancipation of slaves behind enemy lines as economic warfare followed, finally, by the emancipation of the rest.
July 11, 2004 | Permalink
TrackBack
TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/t/trackback/58113/912382
Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Either A Defense Or Else An Attack On Barbara Ehrenreich:
» Is the two party system "broken"? Pass. from Lawyers, Guns and Money
So who's right, Ehrenreich/Farrell or Yglesias/DeLong? My politics certainly lie closer to the former, but I'm not going to take sides here. Instead, I'm going to reject the question as simplistic and nonsensical. [Read More]
Tracked on Jul 11, 2004 7:25:44 PM
» You Can't Have It Both Ways -- Either Of You from Pandagon
This column by Ehrenreich is terrifically written, wonderfully entertaining, and utterly obtuse about its central point. While she's right to note the absurdity of promoting marriage for the poor while attacking it for poor gays, she's wrong to take ai... [Read More]
Tracked on Jul 11, 2004 8:54:14 PM
» Matthew Yglesias Takes a Nuanced Position from Brad DeLong's Semi-Daily Journal (2004)
Matthew Yglesias claims to adopt a "nuanced position" on the question of Barbara Ehrenreich: matthew: Either A Defense Or Else An Attack On Barbara Ehrenreich: I'm not sure whether my thoughts on this controversy constitute a defense or an attack, but ... [Read More]
Tracked on Jul 11, 2004 9:31:17 PM
» Matthew Yglesias Takes a Nuanced Position from Brad DeLong's Semi-Daily Journal (2004)
Matthew Yglesias claims to adopt a "nuanced position" on the question of Barbara Ehrenreich: matthew: Either A Defense Or Else An Attack On Barbara Ehrenreich: I'm not sure whether my thoughts on this controversy constitute a defense or an attack, but ... [Read More]
Tracked on Jul 11, 2004 11:15:54 PM
» Is a third party the Great White Hope or the Great White Whale? from Asymmetrical Information
While I was away, the left half of the blogosphere has been very, very earnestly discussing the question of whether... [Read More]
Tracked on Jul 12, 2004 1:22:42 PM
» Off The Deep End from Under The Sun
"I don't want to be too rose-tinted here, but to look back across the breadth of American history and then look again at the past ten years and decide that now -- now -- is the time to abandon our... [Read More]
Tracked on Jul 12, 2004 3:31:46 PM
Comments
RE: "The reporting in Nickle and Dimed struck me as an excellent case for sticking to it, and realizing that little things like a small boost in the EITC or the minimum wage or minor decreases in housing hosts or slightly better enforcement of the Fair Labor Standards Act or somewhat more energetic union organizing campaigns could make a big difference in the lives of people who have things pretty rough right now. Ehrenreich thinks they'll have to wait until after the Revolution. But why would she think that?"
You will notice that the government is *absent* from _Nickel and Dimed_--that the impact of the social insurance state on poor people's lives is just not there.
I believe the reason Ehrenreich "thinks that" is that saying "Come the Revolution!" is an appropriate attitudinal stance, while "Let's worry about the balance as we raise the minimum wage and the EITC" is not...
Posted by: Brad DeLong | Jul 11, 2004 3:39:31 PM
"Ehrenreich thinks they'll have to wait until after the Revolution. But why would she think that?"
To understand this, I think you have to understand the mindset of people of real leftist beliefs around 1999 or 2000. (I was a person with such beliefs.) In the wake of the growing protests at the G8 (remember the half-million people in the streets in Genoa?) lots of people thought that radical social change was possible. I certainly thought so. Thus, if real change was possible, the left needed to sieze the moment.
Now, I'll admit that I was totally wrong about this. A combination of war and Bush have eliminated protest on real social issues in the US, and the revolution was not actually around the corner.
But if you think that the revolution is coming, then Ehrenreich's position is very understandable.
Posted by: Sam TH | Jul 11, 2004 4:10:19 PM
"This is the same system that was for a long time marred by chattel slavery, after all...
That system proved amenable to incremental reform from within by major stakeholders."
I don't think my elision changed your apparent meaning, which seems to be that the American Civil War falls under the category of "incremental reform".
But your general point is well taken.
Posted by: Ken C. | Jul 11, 2004 4:31:59 PM
The system is broken, as Nader says. And part of the reason is that the Democrats and Republicans have divided up the country and, while disagreeing on some things, on important issues, like the Iraq war and campaign finance reform, there is little difference. They are the Crips and the Bloods (Republicans the Crips, of course) and they have divided the country up between them. I live in Delaware County, PA, where, to be mayor of Chester, perhaps 90% black, you have to be Republican! Similarly in Philadelphia, you must be Democrat or get nowhere. Most of the country lives in solid Republican or Democrat territory, and there is no real choice. Half the electorate sits home each election. None of the above gets a plurality every time.
I understand the dismay with the last election, and Ralph Nader's alleged spoiler role, but that was then, this is now. Kerry is going to win this election comfortably, and Ralph will bring new blood into the process, as he says. If Kerry wins and the Democrats are seen as having been unfair to Ralph, this will do little for the progressive wing of the Democratic party.
Let Nader be Nader.
Posted by: epistemology | Jul 11, 2004 5:32:12 PM
I see that the Great Ken C. has beaten me to the punch.
Ah, well.
Posted by: praktike | Jul 11, 2004 5:41:39 PM
I agree with Ehrenreich that the system is broken. Thirty years with no improvement to the median wage? That's broken.
I even think that her analysis, that the system won't reform until people get angry enough to start a grassroots third-party movement, is correct.
In fact, I'd say the only real big mistake she made was that she failed to take Howard Dean's strategy into account. Howard Dean, for all practical purposes, created a third party. Granted, Dean's party fought in the Democratic primary rather than in the general election. But understand, that's just strategy: the Deaniacs really were a separate movement, not at all beholden to the Democratic party of old, the only use they had for the old Democratic party was to steal their brand name.
Posted by: Josh Yelon | Jul 11, 2004 5:44:13 PM
Why would we think the system is broken? Because the people running the system TELL US it is broken. They tell us we can't afford universal healthcare or, possibly, even Social Security. They tell us we can't defend our interests if we don't have total military dominance of the entire world. Clean politics? Clean air? Clean water? Nope, we can't afford any of these, or so the people running the system tell us.
Now, a lot of us know this can't really be true. Other people who look a lot like us can actually afford old-age pensions, and manage to get along without the world's largest military.
The obvious conclusion is that it's not just 'modern times' or the incurable laziness of the American worker that makes it impossible for us to do things. And when we see that our managers 'manage' to pay themselves 10-20 times what managers make in societies that can afford to do stuff, it gets pretty easy to connect the dots. Our managers are telling us WE can't afford it, but actually THEY don't know how to do it.
And when the people who can't or won't do the job are in charge, the job ain't gonna get done. In my book, that's 'broken'.
Posted by: serial catowner | Jul 11, 2004 6:12:40 PM
From the distance of more than one hundred and fifty years, the 'gradual' dissolution of slavery, then de jure apartheid, might seem like a system that works. But if you told the black people who received freedom in 1865 that they would live their whole lives, and their childred and their children's children, would also live their whole lives under an incessant reign of torture, murder and economic degradation, they might not be too likely to agree. The same could be said about industrial workers in the 19th century. Telling a twelve year old, one armed coal miner that he would probably die of black lung before he turned twenty-five and his kids would probably do so after him that, in seventy five years or so organized labor and government reforms would make it possible for his great-great grandkids to (maybe) go to a two year community college, most likely would not leave that kid thinking that the system didn't need fixing.
It strikes me as nauseatingly smug to sit in a position of near unfathomable priviledge and assure the downtrodden that the system will work things out eventually. Isn't that how the Democratic party became a group of self-satisfied corporate lackies in the first place?
Posted by: Matt_C | Jul 11, 2004 6:15:40 PM
" Thirty years with no improvement to the median wage? "
guess what -- economics is ~complicated~.
Eg. if we gave everyone rent vouchers, landlords would just raise the rents to capture the increase.
Eg2, the mortgage interest tax deduction is really no moneysaver, people just take it into account when bidding up the price of real-estate.
Eg3, the median wage just indicates that with a growing working population, employers have no real need to give away the store to labor. Don't like the pay, go work somewhere else.
Some days I'm a lefty libertarian, and others I'm a libertarian lefty. Today, I dunno.
Posted by: Troy | Jul 11, 2004 6:17:35 PM
Let history be your guide. If Democrats consistently in the lean years work for incremental change and profess moderation, the periodic self-destruction of the Republicans will provide the opportunities for serious reform.
1933,1965
Republicans seem to have to include their most extreme wings in order to gain power, while the Democrats have consistently shunned them. (Communists,Greens). This gives the Democrats the ability to suddenly move left in policy, and also gives the Democrats a greater possibility of a large governing majority.
Whereas, as much as we may have disliked the post-94 years, the Repubs have not been able to obtain that governing majority, and are desperately trying to pack the courts. They will consistently move farther right in frustration.
The Revolution will come either this year, with Bush setting up a fascist dictatorship, or in 2008, as the Republicans run their Ashcroft/Delay ticket, and the Democrats obtain their governing majority again.
Posted by: bob mcmanus | Jul 11, 2004 6:19:23 PM
"It strikes me as nauseatingly smug to sit in a position of near unfathomable priviledge and assure the downtrodden that the system will work things out eventually. Isn't that how the Democratic party became a group of self-satisfied corporate lackies in the first place?"
This is a better description of Ehrenreich's position than MY's. Ehrenreich is encouraging voters to pass up opportunities to make the lives of working-class people incrementally better in the real world, and to instead take the morally pure position of rooting for a revolution that might never come. Of course, Ehrenreich herself would continue to live in comfort and fame whether the revolution comes or not. If that isn't nauseating smugness, I don't know what is.
Posted by: JP | Jul 11, 2004 6:25:08 PM
Err...Epistemology, have you ever heard of primary elections? Even if one party dominates a particular region (which makes sense, anyway - parties are often regionally based - although I find it bizarre that a majority black city could possibly be Republican...could you provide a reference for that?), the party itself is an almost entirely decentralized operation. Anyone can run in a party primary - hell, Lyndon LaRouche runs as a Democrat every four years.
At any rate, I'd just note to Matt's comment on the Republicans - it must be noted that they were the Northern Whig Party under a different name, and with substantial infusions of northern Democrats who had become fed up with sucking up to the south (Hannibal Hamlin, Lincoln's VP, for instance, had been a Democrat. So had the first Republican presidential nominee, J.C. Frémont.) The Southern Whigs had either gone over to the Democrats (as, for instance, future Confederate VP Alexander Stephens - this was pretty usual in the deep south), or were operating as rumps of the Whig party in a decentralized manner and under a different name (most of these parties, still fairly strong in the upper and middle south, were survivals of the American/Know-Nothing movement, which had briefly swept the south as the not-Democratic Party in the aftermath of the collapse of the Whigs)
Posted by: John | Jul 11, 2004 6:27:04 PM
Matt, Matt, Matt of the jungle,
friend to you and me
do da do da do
Roar!
watch out for that tree
doh!
Posted by: moocow | Jul 11, 2004 6:31:53 PM
Boy, if we could make an engine that would run on fumes the way some of these comments do, we'd have this oil shortage licked.
JP, for example, tells us what Ehrenreich thinks. However, it sounds so unlike what I've actually read of Ehrenreich's works that I think I'll wait for JP to supply a sample proving his point.
I do know that in Washington state homecare workers were poor because the Dems and Repubs passed a law denying the workers the right to collective bargaining, and both parties refused to change it. After an initiative to the people passed and the workers were allowed collective bargaining rights, their hourly pay went from $7.15 an hour to about $8.50. May not sound like much to you, but if you'd worked one of these jobs for a while you'd see the point.
Posted by: serial catowner | Jul 11, 2004 6:42:59 PM
Ralph Nader may be an egomaniac. He may not even be especially intelligent. But he's not a total idiot. He's surely well aware he'll never be president of the USA. So, why exactly does he run? Maybe there are some bad feelings toward the Democrats, and maybe he (like lots of folks on the hard left) blithely overlook the substantive differences between the Democrats and today's GOP.
But my guess is his calculation is that by throwing the election to Bush (yet again) the eventual furious reaction to Bushism will stoke the flames of progressive outrage. In other words, the Democrats will be pissed off, spoilin' for a fight, and in no mood to compromise. And only THAT sort of Democratic party will be able to effect meaningful (in Nader's eyes) change.
We obviously see some of this "spoilin' for a fight" party this year (I mean, the competitive, tough nature of the Democratic opposition is quite palpable). But if Kerry fails to prevail, and we have four more years of George W. Bush in the White House, 2008's campaign will make 2004's seem like a genteel tea party. And should events cooperate (say, for instance, a debt-induced return to recession, or stagflation, or maybe a significant property slump), the Democrats in four years' time may even seem like genunie advocates of social democracy in the European or Canadian mode. Apres George le deluge, so goes this logic.
Posted by: P.B. Almeida | Jul 11, 2004 6:55:24 PM
Troy:
Ever try compassionate libertarian.
Posted by: epistemology | Jul 11, 2004 7:14:54 PM
John:
Primary elections? Are you serious. I guess I missed it when the Republican masses rose up as one and demanded GW Bush be the candidate in 2000. The system is pretty well controlled by those in power. Save your civic lessons for the grade schoolers.
Posted by: epistemology | Jul 11, 2004 7:19:04 PM
bob mcmanus:
Are you following the election at all? Bush's chances are fading. Not just the poll numbers, the zeitgeist. The electorate didn't even turn on his father after Gulf War I this quickly. Kerry is a lock. I say this as a non-partisan. I have been registered Republican, I have been registered Democrat, I haven't been registered nor voted for over 25 years (since back when you were a hippie, bob).
Posted by: epistemology | Jul 11, 2004 7:23:06 PM
Hello, up there, Matthew! Serious piece of political wonkery linked here, tip from Tim Dunlop. Attacks yet uses DLC, Greenberg, Judis & Teixeira to advise on winning 2018 midterms. Not at all off-topic.
Posted by: bob mcmanus | Jul 11, 2004 7:25:37 PM
"Are you following the election at all? Bush's chances are fading"
Of course I am following the election. I also know it is only July, that Bush's base is more solid than his father's, that the Bush campaign has a serious array of weapons and tools not yet deployed, including many that no decent American President would have conceived of deploying.
Good Lord. You think this is a lock? John Edwards 16 yr-old-mistress has yet to speak up. The John Hancock building is still standing. And Iran has not yet tested its nuke. Bush has yet to put Condi Rice or Bill Cosby as his running mate, or refused to run, allowing the convention to put the McCain/Powell ticket in his place.
And then there are the unknown unknowns. No I am never comfortable in an election season.
Posted by: bob mcmanus | Jul 11, 2004 7:35:42 PM
As a self-described "technocratic leftist" I always find the plight of economic leftism in America fascinating. Why is America so far to the right of other western nations on so many economic issues? I think it's because America is far more rural and suburban than most other Western nations. WIth ruralism comes cultural conservatism. The reactionary plutocrats have brilliantly harnessed that strain of cultural conservatism for decades now.
So what's a leftist to do? I think the solution is simple. America needs a third party. It needs to be hystericaly reactionary on cultural issues, while being economicaly populist enough to make FDR blush. Think Jesus says yes to life and yes to massive increases in the EITC. A party full of gun lovin', bible thumpin', flag wavin', military servin' and sadly yes gay bashing socialists. Hell, even a few quiet comments about welfare queens and Al Sharpton might be necessary.
This party could pick up seats in Southern and great plains states. It's congressmen would then vote with the Dems on economic issues and grand stand with the Repubs on social issues. The Dems - no matter what Howard Dean tells you - can't win poor southern votes without moving way to the right on social issues. And if the Dems were to move to the right on social issues, their current coalition inlcuding formerly Republican highly educated urban professional types, would crumble.
I know what you're saying: "But WillieStyle, such a party would move the government dangerously to the right on social issues." I say so what? The left controls the national culture, pure and simple. Decades of Republican success have done squat to prevent the perpetual shift of the nation to the left. So much so that Civil Unions for homosexual couples is now a centrist position! SO there'd be two parties whining about Hollywood, big deal.
The government would be driven to do good in areas where it can actualy make a difference while remaining irrelevant where it might do some harm.
And no Roe v. Wade would NOT get overturned. That would be an absolute disaster for the pro life movement. Nothing like images of 19 year old women being imprisoned for having abortions to remind 60% of the country why fundamentalists suck.
Posted by: WillieStyle | Jul 11, 2004 7:38:54 PM
Three in a row, yecch.
All tin-foil stuff aside, the big story in November, after the election, tho it shouldn't be, is Republican turn-out. This completely throws off polls. There is a reason no Supreme Court judge has retired in Bush's first term.
Posted by: bob mcmanus | Jul 11, 2004 7:41:26 PM
But Willie, we already have the big-government big-handout big deficit Republicans. Whether you look at per-capita state payments, or the successful 'bidders' for no-bid war contractors, you'll find the Republicans are getting the most money and paying the least. And, unlike any actual socialist government that's ever lived, the Republicans really don't care if they make a huge deficit the future can never pay off.
Posted by: serial catowner | Jul 11, 2004 7:52:33 PM
bob mcmanus:
Interesting thesis. Perlstein overanalyzes. Progress is two steps forward, one back. Clinton was the consolidating step back. The author tags McGovern as the candidate of "acid, amnesty, abortion". I agree. But consider: If the Republicans instituted a REAL war on drugs, that started putting millions of middle class kids in jail; or sought to bring back a draft, with no amnesty for evaders; or looked close to overturning Roe v Wade; it would be the end for them. Drugs, abortion, and volunteer army are here to stay in America. The first two, at least, a victory, in a shockingly short time, for progressivism.
What does it mean to liberal (or progressive): conservatives cling to the past, liberals embrace the future. The tipping point was the Enlightenment. Modernism eschews sacred texts, all are open to revision; conservatism believes in eternal truths. Eternal truths are easier to defend when the accord with the zeitgeist. Problem in a rapidly evolving society like ours, the zeitgeist is a moving target. There is no core belief of progressivism because THAT is the difference between systems built on faith, and ones built on evidence and reason.
Posted by: epistemology | Jul 11, 2004 7:57:14 PM
Oh, and Bob, thanks for the link. Good reading. Especially germane in Delaware County, PA where our local Boeing plant (the biggest employer) keeps getting downsized and outsourced. Some of my favorite people work for Boeing. I hope they can find management with foresight and the guts to pursue a long term vision.
Posted by: epistemology | Jul 11, 2004 7:59:11 PM
But Serial,
my new Dixicrats would be able to decry such nonsense as corporate welfare, the gutting of overtime laws and anti-union initiatives, in the south and win. Even if all this party did was force the Repubs farther to the left on economic issues (say by embracing universal healthcare) it would be worth it. And then the Dems coud periodically take power as the party of fiscal responisbility, clean up the books while keeping the big programs intact.
Posted by: WillieStyle | Jul 11, 2004 8:01:54 PM
I think your suggestion is fascinating, WillieStyle. It might even give the Democrats enough elbow room to become genuinely liberal on social issues.
Now my question for you, WillieStyle, is this. Can you fake the set of beliefs you describe sufficiently well to help to start such a party? We will need some con artists with abilities equal to the average fundamentalist preacher/politician.
Posted by: Levi | Jul 11, 2004 8:04:26 PM
Sorry Levi,
While I can lie with the best of them, I'm black. So you'll have to find some other soul less bastard.
Posted by: WillieStyle | Jul 11, 2004 8:46:44 PM
Darn it. I was ready to run with this idea.
Posted by: Levi | Jul 11, 2004 9:04:44 PM
I guess the quesiton is: how "incremental" is incremental? If the Democrats are going to offer the sort of incremental changes that post-slavery blacks were offered, I'd say that the chances of getting change are better by rejecting the democrats. Even if it allows for temporary Republican hegemony, history shows that Republicans tend to fuck things up so badly that they won't stay in power for long. If that leads to a short-term worsening of conditions, it doesn't compare to the long term misery involved in waiting for the Democrats to start giving a shit about the underclass.
Posted by: Matt_C | Jul 11, 2004 9:09:25 PM
Catowner, if that was an unfair characterization of the exact same Ehrenreich article we're all talking about, I'd like to hear why. Seems to me like those were the clear implications of her argument: Don't vote to make things a little bit better now, but instead, hold out for the possibility to make things a lot better down the road. I doubt that Ehrenreich herself would quarrel with that characterization - she'd just disagree with my judgment that that's a stupid approach to politics in this country at this time.
Willie, I think the one thing preventing the formation of that kind of party (other than structural constitutional stuff) is race. Any party, even a socially conservative one, that advocates helping the poor would immediately be attacked by right-wing racist demagogues. Maybe they'd find a way to say "help poor whites only," but I don't think either of us would want to support something like that. Just a bridge too far.
I'm with Bob. This election isn't over. Half the voters aren't even paying attention yet. Don't forget: the Democratic primaries looked like they were over four months before Iowa too...
Posted by: JP | Jul 11, 2004 9:20:29 PM
Ehrenstein wasn't talking about going outside the system in the sense of violent revolution, but just using the electoral system differently. Third parties, with one exception, have never taken national office, but they've changed the dialogue a few times (The Populists, various Left parties up to 1932, George Wallace, Perot).
The third party (fourth party, really) which actually did take power was the Republican party, and it led to war. The end of slavery was definitely non-incremental.
The significance of the Delong piece for me was as a reminder of how much the Democratic party doesn't want me. I'm ABB for understandable reasons, but I'd be foolish to expect any consideration for my point of view once the election is over.
They've got me over a barrel. They know it, I know it.
Posted by: Zizka | Jul 11, 2004 9:26:34 PM
Zizka:
I'll consider your point of view after (and before) the election.
Posted by: epistemology | Jul 11, 2004 9:38:07 PM
I still haven't seen anyone offer a substantive counter to Yglesias' main point - i.e. that things are now sufficiently good that incremental improvements are acceptable. Sure, back in the days of Jim Crow, black Americans had a legit reason to flat-out rebel against the system, just as working class people had every motivation to do in the pre-New Deal era. But now we have Civil Rights, we have unions, we have child labor laws and worker safety standards, and all kinds of other protections that make the system so mind-bogglingly better than it used to be that calling for a Revolution now is just nuts.
Posted by: Dave | Jul 11, 2004 10:53:03 PM
Ehrenreich's position is not revolutionary vs. the Constitution. Just against the two-party system, which is extraconstitutional (not "non-" or "un-"). And her position is hardly unique in US history.
The big change for the worse is an increasing number of people in jobs without benefits, without unions, without pensions, without job security, working part-time or flex-time or temp. as I understand these trends have been bad for 30 years and Clinton made things slightly less bad, but didn't reverse the trend. Many TNR / New Dem types say that that's just the way things are and that Democrats shouldn't bother their heads about it.
Access to education is more difficult than it was thirty years ago, too, though I'm uncertain about the recent trend.
Problems with corporate governance and fraud and increasing monopoly power or large-corporation domination of the economy is seen by Green types as a bad thing, and by many Democrats as just fine.
I think that media concentration is a special problem in itself, and the fact that Democrats have tended to ignore the issue is hurting them.
There are probably others. But if Ehrenreich and the rest are right about these questions, then they have a case. And the fact that Matt doesn't notice them or care about them reinforces, rather than weakens, her case that the Democrats are hopeless.
I'm still a bit puzzled by the way people seem to accept Matt's idea that supporting a third party is in some way a revolutionary move. It's really beeen a constant part of American political life for the whole time.
Posted by: Zizka | Jul 11, 2004 11:12:44 PM
It's a wild and crazy idea, voting for a third party candidate. I am voting for Kerry/Edwards though. Like Zizka I have no choice, and both of them are better than average candidates.
Posted by: Levi | Jul 11, 2004 11:22:20 PM
Not for nuthin' but just what is it you don't like about Kerry/Edwards Zizka?
Posted by: WillieStyle | Jul 11, 2004 11:27:30 PM
Dave:
I am not sure who is calling for Revolution but things still are unfair towards blacks in this country. Not because the system is rigged (much) against blacks, now, but because 300 years of efforts to restrain black education, family, and culture, has left deep and persistent deficiencies in the black community. While the cultural ones must be addressed by blacks internally, the financial impairment is another story.
We spent 300 years playing monopoly with blacks in this country with loaded dice. Now that we own all the properties, railroads, and utilties, some say it is sufficient to stop cheating, hand them fair dice and say: roll. While rigging the system to aid them, with quotas, etc. offends our sense of justice that, though we have done the opposite to them, can't be the right compensation. Why can't we just set aside a significant sum, over a set number of years, that benefits black education and small businesses. And for those who object: how do we know who would be eligible, well, we had no trouble fingering who was black when we wanted to negatively advantage them.
Posted by: epistemology | Jul 12, 2004 12:24:10 AM
As I commented elsewhere, I think we have a two-party system as a direct consequence of the voting system we have, where the group with just one more vote than any other group --even if the "winner" is a minority of total votes-- takes all. As long as the game is played that way, you will inevitably have a two party system, and any third party basically guarantees the victory of their *enemies* by divide-and-be-conquered. That's the way the game is set up, and as long as the rules are set up that way, you ignore those rules at your own peril and defeat.
Which is why, of course, if you *really* want change, you have to attack the problem at the source --you have to change the rules of the game. Instant Runoff, for example, or many other ideas posed by intelligent thinkers. *That's* the contribution Nader --or other activists-- could have made; to fight to change the rules of the game so that third parties can actually acomplish something other than division and defeat.
Until then, the rules of victory are crystal clear. The Right and the Republicans have always understood this and their victories represent this understanding. They have always understood that before anything comes power, because without power nothing else matters. Do we?
Posted by: Jeff | Jul 12, 2004 12:24:54 AM
We who, Jeff?
If you represent one of the parties, you are part of the problem. We need 2 alternative parties: the black power party on the left, and the fetal power party on the right.
Posted by: epistemology | Jul 12, 2004 12:49:32 AM
I would add to this discussion that Kerry's "incremental" health care plan covers on the order of 20+ of the 40+ million currently uninsured, and in addition lowers insurance costs for those who already have insurance.
That's a rather large increment if you ask me.
I'm surprised that the Left hasn't opened up the 1990s health care criticism. Carville made a living on the phrase "if a prisoner has the right to see a doctor, why don't you?" Or something to that effect. It help elect Wofford (who replaced Heinz in a special election, but then lost to Santorum), Clinton, and others.
The new version ought to be "why is using the government to build up Iraq's health care system 'sound foreign policy' but using government to build up America's health care system 'socialism'"?
Any takers?
Posted by: niq | Jul 12, 2004 1:08:11 AM
I'm constantly amazed at how anti-Naderites within the Democratic party sound exactly like Republicans when discussing the "extreme left." They simply draw the line in a different place.
What both have in common is that they don't bother to actually listen to what Nader voters say. Instead they create a strawman Nader voter to bash and have at it.
In particular, there is a constant refrain that Nader voters didn't appreciate the threat of George Bush. I find that idea quite laughable. I think that I wasn't alone in voting for Nader precisely because I took the threat of ultra-reactionary Republicanism far more seriously than the rest of the party. Far from actually wanting Nader to become President (did anyone, really?) I hoped that a significant defection would cause Democratic leaders to wake up stop being the GOP's bitch. Unfortunately, it didn't work. 2002 was an even bigger disaster. But I feel no guilt over sending a warning message.
Despite the fact that the vast majority of the party now is fighting to remove Bush, I am remain concerned that they still don't get it. This isn't about Bush. This is about defeating a conservative movement that has deeply ingrained anti-democratic values. That has no qualms about talking about suspending elections. For some reason, Democrats still have yet to articulate what the party stands for. And why DeLay, Frist, and Scalia - as much or more than Bush - remain a threat to democracy.
The Democratic party already has better policies. What they don't have is better stories. Better messages. Better marketing. Political party affiliation is ultimately about ends not means. Brad DeLong may understand what government should specifically be doing in a way that Barbara Ehrenreich cannot. But "Nickle and Dimed" will convince more people to become Democrats than Brad DeLong ever will.
Posted by: space | Jul 12, 2004 1:17:51 AM
epistemology, I don't know which 'we' Jeff was referring to. But I'll give you my take. I am very open to run-off voting. Our democracy is broken until we have it.
I am also unhappy with our current two-party system. I am very sympathetic to Greens on the Left, and considered voting for them in 2000. I did not, because I knew damn well I might as well be voting for George Bush. No matter how odious my disagreements were with Gore, they were nothing compared to my problems with Bush.
So the 'we' that needs to get it is the Greens. The Greens won't succeed at their stated goals -- no third party has every had lasting success in America. And they will not until instant run-off and coalition government comes. So Greens need to wake up, hijack the Democratic party, and if they get a majority, change our voting system.
Until then it is just well-intentioned masturbation.
Posted by: Timothy Klein | Jul 12, 2004 1:33:13 AM
Frankly, Nader can go perform whatever unnatural acts he likes with the Republicans at this point; he's irritated me enough that I wouldn't consider voting for him. I trust Kerry to be what he says he is, but I no longer trust Ralph.
However, I do want a third party, or a different second party, because I don't feel that there are only two stances on the important issues, and I think that no one is letting legitimate viewpoints--namely, my viewpoints--get a fair airing.
I come down far left on most social issues, with a radical libertarian bent (I'd rather see marriage abolished than allow gay marriage, although I certainly prefer marriage-for-everyone to marriage-for-some). I don't agree with banning firearms; no administration could have made me consider the right to bear arms more important than this one has. An armed or potentially armed populace is ultimately the only thing that can stop some leaders, even democratically elected ones, from violating civil liberties. Better gun control is a great idea, but hitting gun shows is more important than putting even more forms in place in legitimate gun shops.
Anyway, I'm not going to lay out my whole spectrum of belief here, but I do think that I have a legitimate reason to believe that the "system" is failing me in small but significant ways. I also feel that my country is more than strong enough to risk four more years of Bush. If there were a third-party candidate worth voting for, then I'd vote for that person.
There's not, so I'm going to vote for the lesser of three evils: Kerry.
Posted by: Nick Simmonds | Jul 12, 2004 1:55:41 AM
I'm with Nick to some extent, being a lefty libertarian. Government cannot always beat the free market, and the free market cannot always beat the government. When in doubt, err on the side of personal freedoms.
gun-grabbing, big-media (DMCA) dems don't do much for me. But I'm realistic enough to realize that you can't always get what you want.
I voted for Campbell (R) for Cal Senate in 2000. He didn't win, but at the time I didn't quite grok the policy dynamics of the current republican leadership, and how even such a rational (R) as Campbell would have resulted in a really bad situation, given the Jeffords switch.
In short, I'm voting (D) until the (R)'s clean house. If the (R)'s want my vote, they're going to have to move to the center in word and deed.
Posted by: Troy | Jul 12, 2004 2:25:11 AM
Dave, in addition to Zizka's comments regarding what leftists think requires fixing, and about how supporting a third party isn't nearly as revolutionary as, well, the Revolution... I think the other attack on Matt's position is what Ken C and Matt_C said: that the incrementalism MY cited looks fine in the long view of history, but it's not fine now. "Justice delayed is justice denied" and all that.
Posted by: ArC | Jul 12, 2004 3:12:42 AM
"What both have in common is that they don't bother to actually listen to what Nader voters say."
Speaking as a Democrat, I am fine with what Nader voters and Nader profess to believe. The stumbling block which seems, space, to have escaped you, is Nader's stunning dishonesty. His senescent egomania - "I'm fresh blood!" - not so much.
I am delighted that after our considerable focus on the Nader issue over several weeks as a campaign group, Nader missed the ballot in Indiana. He was presented at a talk by the head of the IN Green Party, who should have been fired before the end of the talk. The Greens have a candidate, who I could happily vote for in different times. Nader, never again (2000). The man has becomne a liar, a swindler and a fraud. It grieves me (2000).
Posted by: John Isbell | Jul 12, 2004 7:53:44 AM
So, Space, the Republicans are so dangerous that you want to leave them in power even longer? You want the Democrats out of power because they aren't aware enough of the vast danger that will face the country if they are not in power? That's completely insane.
Posted by: John | Jul 12, 2004 8:02:40 AM
Kerry seems to be on the Yglesias page on the Iraq war: execution was bungled, Iraq might not be the right place to have started, but we should stay there and should keep doing that kind of thing and blowing shit up. That was what the whole McCain VP thing meant to me -- McCain is at least as hawkish as Bush.
Kerry has left his position vague on Iraq, but recently he sent a clear message that on Israel he'll continue support for Sharon (i.e., not change Bush's policy).
Kerry might be OK on domestic policy, or might not. In a world in which liberal has become a curse word, I can't expect the Democrats to follow my dictates, but the vehemence of Brad's response to Ehrenreich was a sort of wakeup call.
Posted by: Zizka | Jul 12, 2004 9:18:59 AM
You people are idiots, irredeemably stupid leftist idiots.
Posted by: Matthew Vadum | Jul 12, 2004 10:00:59 AM
Vadum, that hurts. You're a cruel man, unless you're a cruel woman posting under a man's name.
P.S. Matt Y: your anti-spam number is virtually illegible. Does this mean that I've turned into a bot?
Posted by: Zizka | Jul 12, 2004 10:37:46 AM
"You people are idiots, irredeemably stupid leftist idiots."
If you call me a leftist again you are going to get clocked, Vadum.
Posted by: Levi | Jul 12, 2004 11:18:30 AM
One thing a lot of people are missing- Kerry has offered the Left nothing. Nada. Zip. The Big O.
Sure, compared with Bush, Kerry looks like the Second Coming. Who wouldn't?
But what you have is almost the entire Left supporting a candidate who offers no change at all. So get a grip. If you want to criticize people who don't see the difference between Kerry and Bush, talk to Mr. & Mrs Suburban Soccer Mom.
As for Matt's incremental improvements- WTF???? Real wages down, health care costs through the ceiling, quality of life in the toilet, over half the workforce employed in 'temp' jobs- my god, one more victory such as this and we are lost!
Posted by: serial catowner | Jul 12, 2004 11:28:09 AM
Somewhere upthread there's a post by "Matthew Vadum" with a trenchant comment to this effect: "You people are all idiots. Irredeemably stupid leftist idiots." Or words to that effect.
That's amazing. Because in my work life I know a Matthew Vadum and he is indeed right-wing and he cannot mount a respectable defense of his views. Also, he has a eunuch's voice and tends to squeak and squeal when he wants to indicate disdain.
When Matthew is wrong in his work, as opposed to his personal views, he gives in readily enough but adopts a tone indicating that the mistake being corrected is yours and not his.
In short he is just the sort to drop an insulting remark in an enemy comments section and then flee. We call that sort of person a douchebag.
So here he is on the net, the same as in real life. Hey there, Matthew! Too bad you're not reading this.
Posted by: Kyle | Jul 12, 2004 12:31:14 PM
This is the same system that was for a long time marred by chattel slavery, after all, and for a hundred years after that by a period in which one major region was groaning under the yoke of a one-party apartheid state (to say nothing of racial problems in the north). That system proved amenable to incremental reform from within by major stakeholders.
Yes, if you leave out the Civil War, labor strikes and violence, the rise and cooption of the Populist Party, more labor strikes and violence, race riots, the rise and cooption of the Progressive Party, the rise and cooption of the Socialist Party, more labor strikes and violence, more race riots, etc., then it's true that we owe all positive social and political change to the calming influence of "major stakeholders."
Posted by: Hogan | Jul 12, 2004 1:50:54 PM
Man do we have proof here you can't argue with a Nader voter. There was I thinking the dishonesty part might have an effect. Foof. Bring on November, and let 'em vote.
Posted by: John Isbell | Jul 12, 2004 5:05:11 PM
Wow, Matt -- so on your planet the "safety net" is in fine shape! How do the rest of us get there?
Some of us infantile folks remember why we once identified ourselves as Democrats: because its policies seemed to affirm the idea -- embraced by the rest of the civilized world -- that our lives are mainly influenced by forces beyond our control (i.e., luck) and that the primary purpose of government is to -- as much as possible -- mitigate those forces. Bill Clinton's innovation in rejecting this and accepting the right-wing mythology of "personal responsibility" has made orphans of us. Good thing, too -- builds character.
Posted by: Ira Hozinsky | Jul 12, 2004 6:46:54 PM
Vadum:
Levi is threatening violence without first checking with the UN, ergo he is NOT a liberal idiot.
Posted by: epistemology | Jul 12, 2004 7:25:01 PM
niq:
I love your healthcare meme. National healthcare now: If we can afford to do it for the Iraqis.
And I think this is an example where incremental is worse than nothing because the time is ripe and if we nibble at the coalition of people hurting from our current healthcare pollicies, we significantly delay national healthcare.
That is why the bogus prescription plan for Medicare that Congress recently passed was WORSE than nothing. It makes real reform more distant.
Posted by: epistemology | Jul 12, 2004 7:28:08 PM
serial catowner:
"Kerry has offered the Left nothing."
This kind of thinking is what gets conservatives elected. They know that they can count on their man when the election is over, and don't paint him into a corner before the election (the Hate Amendment was just a miscalculation).
Kerry offers the Left a chance to depose Bush. How do you like them apples? Quite a gift.
Posted by: epistemology | Jul 12, 2004 7:33:28 PM
It's been nostalgic reading this thread. Substitute Libertarian chestnuts for lefty ones and I was a participant in way too many conversations like this back in the early '80s.
The reason the Left is perpetually in a stew about why "The Revolution" never seems to come is the same reason my old Libertarian comrades never managed to smash the state either - the overwhelming majority of Americans find your politics off-putting and weird.
Many thanks to Ira H. for summing up the essence of the left-wing "yuck" factor. He got it exactly right. Leftist politics is based on the fundamental notion that it's a cold cruel world out there and every one of us is, individually, pretty much powerless to affect our fate. Our circumstances are random accidents. Only in acting en masse to expropriate the "lucky" is there any hope.
The reason the Left never gets any traction Stateside is that very few Americans believe this about themselves - though I will grant you that there is a sizable contingent who believe it about OTHER people. Part of the American idea is that individuals matter and that your fate is substantially under your control. This is the everyday experience of tens of millions of your fellow citizens. You want to convince them they're wrong? Have at it.
Just to be fair, I won't leave myself and my old shipmates out of this. The Libertarian "yuck" factor comes from pushing the notion of rugged individualism past its current elastic limit. Just because most Americans want no part of a Leviathan nanny state, doesn't mean they don't also want at least a bit of a "rainy day" state to cover catastrophes.
The political system in this country was deliberately designed to make it essentally impossible for the exponents of unrepresentative, marginal, minority viewpoints - like yours or mine - to achieve meaningful political power. It works pretty much as designed. It's a feature, not a bug.
You want to take over? All you have to do is convince enough people you're right. Me, I'm not holding my breath while you work on it.
Posted by: Dick Eagleson | Jul 12, 2004 7:45:31 PM
Dick, I certainly don't expect my views to prevail. The institutional mechanisms through which Americans have been conditioned to see success as a reward for virtue are way beyond my power to counteract (despite the lessons of experience).
By the way, I didn't intend to suggest that we are entirely at the mercy of fate; simply that specific social forces -- yes, forces beyond our control -- effect our destinies far more than libertarians acknowledge, and that society does itself damage by pretending otherwise.
Posted by: Ira Hozinsky | Jul 12, 2004 10:13:48 PM
I should have said: "..far more than libertarians and Clinton Democrats acknowledge..."
Posted by: Ira Hozinsky | Jul 12, 2004 10:18:43 PM
Let me add that I agree with Dick on one point: the hideous and destructive notion that independence from others is an essential aspect of human dignity is uniquely American.
Posted by: Ira Hozinsky | Jul 12, 2004 11:15:48 PM
And those forces would be?
Posted by: Dick Eagleson | Jul 13, 2004 2:05:43 PM
Re "Kyle" post above:
I gather that is a pseudonym because I do not deal with anyone named "Kyle" in my work. I routinely mount "a respectable defense of [my]views," but I regret I sometimes tire easily when arguing with people and can grow cranky. I do not have "a eunuch's voice": in fact, I have a pleasant baritone voice that has prompted many people to ask me why I don't do radio work. Nor do I "squeak and squeal when [I want] to indicate disdain."
The comment, "When Matthew is wrong in his work, as opposed to his personal views, he gives in readily enough but adopts a tone indicating that the mistake being corrected is yours and not his," demonstrates that "Kyle" has no personal knowledge of me. If one is wrong, one should freely admit it, and I do when I'm wrong. If you're never wrong about anything, chances are you aren't doing anything.
Occasionally I make intemperate remarks that I regret such as calling others "leftist idiots" or what have you, but that's life. At least, unlike the mysterious "Kyle," I don't fabricate tales about people I don't know.
Posted by: Matthew Vadum | Jul 19, 2004 11:15:43 AM
http://www.numoon.com/wwwboard/messages/4475.html chastisedgyrationsroundest
Posted by: missionary | Sep 20, 2005 3:17:49 AM
http://www.acnetreatment.com/wwwboard/messages/7922.html betraysmotheringstories
Posted by: frenching | Sep 26, 2005 3:47:03 PM
http://www.usa-navi.com/cooking/boards/messages/1197.html drivertenvanishing
Posted by: inhibitions | Oct 18, 2005 6:34:48 PM
sexe homme pour femme video bijoux fimo homme costume de marie pour homme sexe gratuit homme photo vestiaire homme homme slip calvin homme gay flyer chemise ralph lauren homme petits sexe homme bijoux argent homme sex gay homme homme qui porte des collant les droit de l homme bafoue photo homme velus body slip homme sexy homme veste kaki homme femme cherche homme quebec declaration universelle droit homme preambule pull ras du cou homme vieille femme cherche jeune homme homme cherche femme seul soiree coquin sexe homme recherche femme sex veste homme coton
homme soumis cherche maitresse tee shirt homme grossiste homme docile soumis vente cosmetique homme sm recit homme soumis pantalon jeans diesel achat homme jeune homme poilu manteau street wear homme discrimination entre homme et femme homme soumis sm pantalon homme avec pince tee shirt direction taille homme muscle homme nu homme tee shirt recit homme soumis sexe dessin homme et femme tee shirt blanc homme recherche homme black sac bandouliere homme homme masque fer histoire couple cherche homme elle couple bi cherche homme bi agen galerie gratuite masturbation homme dolce gabbana shirt homme video mere avec jeune homme sac et baiseenville homme
Pornographic character information...
Posted by: Cronos | Feb 13, 2006 7:23:49 PM
rencontre des fille vierge icone de la vierge a l enfant vierge chatte personnalite signe de la vierge 100 cd vierge moins cher fete sainte vierge enveloppe papier vierge cd dvd vierge noire picabia sainte vierge verbatim 50 cd vierge club 8 medley 2003 live at totp 27.12.03 video carte grece antique vierge first time 18 first time sex video sexe live show gratuit first time in ass apparition vierge versailles gratuit video x video and porno video sexe gratis free porn video clip clip video musique gratuit video xxx demande paris hilton video sexe jeu video pc video xxx gratuite video x hard carte graphique sortie video video sexe free video porno gratuite sans telecharger jeu video porno carte video tuner tv xxx gratuit video gratuit video gratuite du net clip video sexy video lesbienne lecteur dvd divx portable video embarquee mystral dpx515 moteur recherche video x gratuite 194.146.227.8 amateur anna video video gratuite sexe amateur extrait gratuit de video gay video sex drole telechargement video x totalement gratuite video gag porno extrait video sex petite video drole camera video amateur
Posted by: Meduza | Feb 14, 2006 9:21:28 AM
restaurant enterrement de vie de garcon epreuve enterrement vie garcon garcon nu public vetement homme laurent cerrer evolution de l homme nu entre garcon vetement garcon 18 mois hommes nu garcon devenir fille homme femme nu bayard prud homme achat string homme ides offrire original cadeaux homme vetement homme tres grand photo celebrite homme nu string transparent homme sexe photo video gratuite extrait video mpeg sexe totalement gratuit video gratuite extrait sexe amateur video sexe gratuit visioner video sexe gratuit sexe video du jour video sexe amateur francaise video sexe zoophile gratuit clip video gratuit de sexe free video clip sexe gratuit gigas video de sexe gratuit sexe video photo gratuite sexe photo video gratuite mini video gratuite sexe extrait de video de sexe hard gratuit sexe and francais and gratuit and video sexe and extrait and free gratuit sexe avec extrait video video sexe acces gratuit video hard sexe gratuit free sexe video sexe gratuit video extrait amateur video sexe gratuit extrait video gratuit sexe amateur video entiere site amateur sexe video sexe porno gratuit video amateur sexe gratuit sexe extrait video amateur free video and sexe and allopass extrait gratuit clip video sexe video gratuit telecharger porno sexe film gratuit amateur lesbienne femme lesbienne gros sein nu lesbienne gode archive video lesbienne gratuit britney spears video nu lesbienne rencontre et annonces lesbienne extrait de video de lesbienne gratuite jeune lesbienne video gratuit gratuit chat lesbienne sex lesbian blond lesbian shower pussy of lesbian lesbian cute pussy femme lesbienne kiss escorte lesbian young orgasm lesbian asslick lesbian movie
Posted by: marck | Feb 15, 2006 11:53:45 AM
partage reseau logiciel logiciel web tv logiciel partage ecran telecharger logiciel partage fichier logiciel webcam creative vita plus accessoire organiseur logiciel gps pc logiciel music jetaudio logiciel telecharger clip video music gratuit protection logiciel mac logiciel dvd lecture logiciel java microsoft vm telecharge logiciel emule logiciel mettre texte gif 3d logiciel solution association ciel logiciel emule plus logiciel gratuit creation diaporama travaux orthophoniques sur langue signe horoscope taureau langue signe fran�aise horoscope gratuit vierge 2005 didier colin horoscope 2006 signe cancer horoscope gratuit special 2006 horoscope novembre cancer loi sur signe religieux horoscope wanadoo fr ecole interpete langue signe signe astro vierge signe var horoscope personnalise horoscope chinois 2005 gratuit horoscope de l annee 2004 horoscope novembre balance signe zodiacal capricorne capricorne signe tous sur signe astrologique capricorne signe chinois amour astrologie signe ascendant signe astrologique compatibilites fond ecran signe astrologique scorpion signe astro signe avant coureur de grossesse
Posted by: Eddy | Feb 16, 2006 6:40:16 AM
fichier musique midi telecharger gratuitement musique sinik chanson francaise parole et musique lecteur chaine musique telecharger gratuitement et legalement musique midi files musique chanson franc gratuit telechargement legal musique gratuite musique zanzarah legende deux monde musique ceremonie mariage civil musique mp3 telecharger gratuitement ligne petite annonces cours musique marseille festival musique agrave saint victor top 30 musique cours musique havre musique top 20 algerien charger musique militaire
musique film ne nous fachons pas musique logiciel gratuit musique and gratuite and and telecharger and telecharger chanson and music telecharger ecouter musique harcore telecharger and musique telecharger musique sur portable telechargement de logiciel de musique gratuit musique telecharger gratuitement logiciel ecriture musique telecharger musique et film musique portable acheter de la musique a telecharger chanteur musique africaine france musique fr musique africaine ligne telechargement de clip musique gratuit musique clip amine article sur theorie musique arabe cd des musique dance 80 et 90 ecole normale musique france
Here we teach you how to discharge the best mp3 music as well as the last movies of Box Office.
Posted by: Baldur | Feb 16, 2006 6:13:57 PM
musique mariage gratuite karaoke chanson pierrot musique algerienne chanson de rap et rnb m6 chanson generique veux bebe bebe chanson midi mp3 telecharger vanbasco s karaoke les chanson chanson musique celine dion nouvelle chanson ecouter musique rif telechargement musique et film musique du film titanic logiciel de musique studio logiciel fabrication musique gratui galerie photo instrument de musique partition musique populaire dunkerque overnet telechargement gratuit musique musique film graver sur cd france 2 musique achat musique classique musique hard techno jungle musique free download clip musique cher song cd musique fete musique pub mp3 cd musique africaine musique africaine telecharger gratuitement musique armee francaise vangelis musique monde musique monde enfant musique monde cd creation musique rap festival musique du monde logiciel musique creation mp3 free downloading music transformer mp3 lecteur mp3 cle usb passer de wma a mp3 comparatif baladeur mp3 usb mp3 wma telechargement and musique and mp3 baladeur mp3 dictaphone juke box baladeur mp3 ipod encodeur mp3 freeware convertisseur mp3 a mp3 sandisk mp3 baladeur lecteur mp3 wingogo mp3 encoder easy mp3 converter convertir fichier wav fichier mp3 fichier wav mp3 encoder mp3 freeware lecteur mp3 baladeur hp telecharger musique video radio dance music sony music clip music arabic com illimite telecharger music mp3 legal sony stereo music systeme hmk 77b music maroc grauit clip music ucp video dbpoweramp music converter audio cd input radio city music hall histoire pop music ecouter musique arabe instrument music basse ecouter musique de walt disney ecouter and de and la and musique ecouter de la musique sur internet
Posted by: ladislao | Feb 17, 2006 6:20:23 AM
telecharger emule gratuit fr e donkey emule film fr canada probleme serveur avec emule film a telecharger avec emule mise and a and jour and serveur and emule telecharger emule v0.46c gratuitement lien direct emule film emule x lien forum adulte emule telechargement liens emule 0.45 serveur emule 0.46c emule inside projet configuration and emule and and and and z emule 0.44d gratuit aide and emule logiciel musique mac logiciel musique encore ou finale logiciel boutique en ligne logiciel coiffure et paie meilleur logiciel antivirus telecharger logiciel composer musique logiciel fiche paie musique logiciel logiciel telechargement des carte prepayee gsm logiciel paie freeware logiciel gestion paie calendrier logiciel de traduction francais japonais logiciel gestion de tresorerie logiciel dessin circuit imprime logiciel platine mixage logiciel de mixage professionnel
Posted by: Brower | Feb 20, 2006 8:24:06 AM
msn easy rencontre msn messenger version 6.2 reseau hack msn msn avatar gratuit logiciel pour decouvrir les mot de passe msn msn messeger 6.2 webcam sexy msn pirater msn messenger piratage de session msn msn image perso dynamique telecharge msn messenger7.5 patch and msn installer gratuitement msn messenger pirater mot de passe sur msn creer nouvelle adresse msn mot de passe sur msn telecharger messenger 7 mise jour msn messenger 7 beta mns messenger 7.0 windows messenger francais telechargement msn messenger beta 7 installation msn messenger 7.0 plus msn messenger plus 3.25 telecharger msn messenger v 6