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Their Morals and Ours

Never miss an opportunity to steal a headline from Leon Trotsky, that's what I say. Mark Schmitt, meanwhile, has wise words on the subject that he attributes to Hendrik Hertzberg:

[T]he idea that stuck with me, and that has seemed hugely relevant through all the Clinton melodrama and into the Bush era, is that there is a symbiotic relationship between the weakening of the boundaries of private life, and the denigrating of the public sphere. The more we made the private public, the more we would erode the idea of the public sphere as a separate one with its own moral obligations. The more the boundary is smudged, the more private virtues substitute for public duties, and private vices are allowed to distort and twist the public debate about health care or taxation, the more illegitimate and merely a matter of individual preference will the larger moral choices we make as a society seem.

This is obviously a helpful insight into Bill Clinton, especially coming at the moment when he seems to have almost given up, and allowed so many of his television interviews to be devoted more to his private shame than his public record, rather than holding firm as he did in 1998. But it is also key to the understanding of George W. Bush's bizarre glorification of private morality. "I will restore honor and integrity to the White House" meant absolutely nothing more than that he would refrain from screwing the interns, for which we are expected to give thanks.

I've been thinking about this topic lately and I think you'll see a proper essay on it from me in the not-too-distant future, but one point I've been thinking about is this. There's a very real sense in which the ideals of private morality -- of being a good husband, father, and friend, say -- is strictly incompatible with the demands that public morality places on our high officials. It's always treated as a joke when people say they're leaving the government in order to "spend more time with my family" but there's really nothing funny about it. The senior staff in the White House, in the cabinet departments, and in the congress really don't get to spend much time with their families, at least not if they're doing their jobs right. And unlike very busy people in the private sector, working hard doesn't even serve the goal of enriching the family. When it's done right, it's a person's conscious decision to sacrifice his private obligations to family in pursuit of the public interest.

This probably means that people with high political ambitions aren't great marriage candidates. But it also means that people whose highest aspiration is to properly discharge their private duties isn't a very good candidate for high office. Bill Clinton often claims that the hardest, most important, job he ever had was that of father. This is a nice "feel good" line -- it makes us feel like Clinton is in touch with the values of common decency that most of us hold dear. But in his case it's also patently false. A big part of what made him a better President of the United States than George W. Bush is that he thought being President of the United States was the hardest, most important job he ever had. That's the sort of person you want to have as president. You almost certainly wouldn't want to be his wife or his daughter. It seems that in a sense he had so many "friends" that he must not have had any real friends. And yet he really and truly wanted to -- and did -- focus on trying his best to do a good job discharging his office. He wasn't 100% successful at this, any more than anyone is 100% successful at discharging their private obligations, but he was pretty clearly trying in a way that the current occupant of the White House is not.

July 1, 2004 | Permalink

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Morals Shmorals.

Posted by: abb1 | Jul 1, 2004 12:44:53 PM

"Bill Clinton often claims that the hardest, most important, job he ever had was that of father. This is a nice 'feel good' line -- it makes us feel like Clinton is in touch with the values of common decency that most of us hold dear. But in his case it's also patently false. A big part of what made him a better President of the United States than George W. Bush is that he thought being President of the United States was the hardest, most important job he ever had. That's the sort of person you want to have as president."

This is very, very, very well put.

That having been said, I would take issue with this:

"It seems that in a sense he had so many 'friends' that he must not have had any real friends."

I don't think this is right. I think the evidence is that Clinton is the sort of person who always had an exceptional number of "real" friends. In important ways, however, he lost those friends once he became President, either because of the demands of politics (Robert Reich, Lani Guinier), because of the sresses of relentless investigation (Vince Foster), or simply because of the inherent loneliness of the position (surrounded by Secret Service, constantly traveling, etc.). Without excusing it, I wonder whether those losses had something to do with his conduct as regards Monica Lewinsky.

Posted by: alkali | Jul 1, 2004 12:46:25 PM

The character traits that make someone an effective politician do not necessarily make him a good person. This is true in every realm, but politicians are uniquely expected to be good role models. Odd, when you think about it, since the requirement that politicians be good people would result in the culling of many talented leaders from the pool.

Given the choice between Kerry and Bush, one wonders if this is already happening.

Posted by: Joel | Jul 1, 2004 12:47:04 PM

to quote the wonderful West Wing, and its chief of staff, Leo McGarry:

"This is the most important thing I'll ever do. I have to do it well."
"It's not more important than your marriage." -- Leo's wife, Jenny
"It is more important than my marriage, right now. These few years while I'm doing this, yes it is more important than my marriage."

Damn straight, and that's the kind of person I want running my country.

Posted by: Sean | Jul 1, 2004 12:50:31 PM

It's worth noting that Bush is NOT failing to do a good job as President because he is focusing on his private obligations. He doesn't pay that much attention to his daughters or wife, as far as I can tell.

Also, Clinton wasn't attacked for failing to be there for his daughter and wife, but rather for messing around with an intern.

While your point is well taken, it's good to remember that actually the problem isn't a balance of solely private and public duties, it's also a balance of the amount of self interest and immorality intrude on those duties. A very moral and honorable person will be able to fulfill both duties better than an immoral person can fulfill even just one at all.

Posted by: MDtoMN | Jul 1, 2004 12:57:58 PM

Good post, Matt. I look forward to the essay-to-come.

As I have watched various Clinton interviews, I have obviously heard far too much about Monica Lewinsky and too little about everything else a successful President accomplished over two terms. Once an interview turns to actual issues (which didn't happen 'til 'After the Show' on Oprah) one thing strikes me most of all -- even three-plus years removed from office it almost seems Clinton is still trying harder at the job of President than Bush. He has a more frim grasp of the issues, can actually speak to them, and has more thought-out plans and positions.

I am constantly left amazed at the lowering of the bar as far as Presidential discourse goes (as long as Bush doesn't actually swallow his tongue, he was 'great', 'on message', etc) and left rueing the 22nd Amendment.

Posted by: Mr Furious | Jul 1, 2004 1:10:33 PM

I disagree that a moral person will be able to fill both duties better than an immoral person can fill either. That is a silly platitude. It's like saying that a student who is good at both math and English is necessarily better at math than a student who is only good at math. Nonsense.

Clinton was not an amoral person however hard the VRWC tried to paint him as such. Like W he had some personal weaknesses, but in most areas acted in a moral and compassionate manner. With respect to his wife, he screwed up in a big way. With respect to the rest of us he did a pretty good job. Admittedly he had some misses (early foreign policy) and did some things that in retrospect were really dumb (deregulation of various sorts), but that is to be expected. For the most part he spent his entire adult life thinking about what constitutes good government and attempting to apply that as president. I'm sorry about all of the People Magazine crap that went on in his life, but I don't think that it detracted at all from what he did for us as a president.

W's fake piety on the other hand does not in any way substitute for his lack of leadership.

Posted by: Jxbrown | Jul 1, 2004 1:22:59 PM

God hates people who get blowjobs from interns, and the american press knows it. He HATES the blowjob-getters more than almost anything. Better, in His eyes, to let 10 million people die of hunger or AIDS than to get a blowjob from a 22-year-old intern. God regrets ever having made Eve with a mouth and Adam with a dick, but there's nothing He'll do about it now. It's all up to Ken Starr and the Republicans.

OT: Atrios' site is down.


Posted by: pico | Jul 1, 2004 1:36:46 PM

I keep staring at a blank screen trying to be fair and defend W somehow. There is the dicussion of his "management style" and "desire to keep a normal life", but with the possible exception of boot camp and learning to fly a jet, the man has never really worked in his life. Putting in a 12 hour day of intense practice to improve his golf drive, anything, I can remember no story of him straining himself.

I find him astonishing and incomprehensible, and his party the same for nominating him. I keep thinking there is something I am missing about the values of the upper classes and old money. Even if it is bird-watching or polo, I though everyone had to work at something to stay sane. Bush doesn't really care about anything. It is really weird.

Posted by: bob mcmanus | Jul 1, 2004 1:43:07 PM

Well, to a conservative the ideal politician is precisely one who accomplishes as little as possible while in office, so maybe this is another explanation for their focus on leaders' private morals.

Posted by: guy incognito | Jul 1, 2004 1:43:29 PM

"For the most part he spent his entire adult life thinking about what constitutes good government and attempting to apply that as president."

You really need to be more cynical about the politicians, Jx. They are power-hungry megalomaniacs. Some are smarter others are dumber - but morals? good government? This is simply ridiculous...

Posted by: abb1 | Jul 1, 2004 1:46:07 PM

Personally I'm in favor of making a politician's private life off limits, and I don't care whether he has mistresses or not. But at the same time, the more I think about this issue, the more I come to the conclusion that the British/American concept of marriage has consequences for public life. If you accept deceit as a feature of private life, it generally means a higher tolerance for corruption in the public sphere. It was actually a French person who pointed this out to me, saying that the zone of privacy around French politicians tends to mean that their political corruption goes uninvestigated. And indeed, it's not the press in France that tries to expose corruption, it's the judiciary - as witnessed in the the recent Juppe affair.

Posted by: Anne | Jul 1, 2004 1:57:41 PM

A few thoughts:

- Clinton and Hillary were truly a special case of politics and family mixing. The evidence suggests that there wasn't much of a divide between those two areas - that Hillary was just as involved and committed as Bill was. Chelsey is a topic I don't know about - B&H did a good job keeping her life private, but to what degree she was getting the proper attention isn't clear except that the high quality of the product seems to say something about the process.

- Schmidt: "there is a symbiotic relationship between the weakening of the boundaries of private life, and the denigrating of the public sphere."

I've been thinking recently that at least two factors have lead to this conjoining of politics and private life:

(1) Policy issues have become (maybe always have been) too complex for public discourse in a society where everyone's time is pressured by work, family, community obligations, etc. If the issues can't be easily made into headlines (but the GOP seems better at this than the Dems), a person's 'character' can be. Kerry is a 'flip-flopper' is easier than here's why Kerry has adapted his views to changing reality.

(2) Politics is now celebrity more than earlier periods - TV has made this a fact. People are interested in the private lives of public people, not just for Hollywood and DC, but in sports, business, media, etc. We all like to know what the 'real' man or woman is all about. In the case of politics, the 'players' often encourage this blurring of public from private: see John Kerry snowboarding or motorcycle riding; see George Bush cutting wood or playing golf.

Matt is surely right about the demands of public life versus nurturing of the family and friends. Perhaps the happiness and effectiveness of pols is only maximized when the spouse shares in both parts of that life, or has their own world of activity that is separate from the political arena.

Posted by: JimPortlandOR | Jul 1, 2004 2:16:12 PM

I think that the biggest divide between liberals and conservatives is that they define "morality" differently. Conservatives (or at least religious conservatives) complain that liberals are immoral or amoral. But there is a certain sense in which liberalism is completely driven by issues of morality --- how should we as a nation treat the poor, the environment, the children, religious and ethnic minorities, the accused, etc. Those are moral issues to many liberals: how to be good, just, etc.

But conservatives (or at least religious conservatives) are concerned with a different set of moral issues: the problem of how to deal with evil. They consider that a person's morality is reflected in how tolerant they are of various evils: abortion, drugs, homosexuality, pornography, gambling, adultery. For conservatives, these are the evils that a moral person should confront. For liberals, these are private matters that are (for the most part) none of our business.

Posted by: Daryl McCullough | Jul 1, 2004 2:25:03 PM

Heck, a thread about the conflict bewtween marriage and political life, dedication to job, hard working, and I haven't mentioned James K Polk yet.

Posted by: bob mcmanus | Jul 1, 2004 3:27:00 PM

I curious as to what makes you think Bush doesn't work hard at his job? Or is it just an unexplainable cheapshot because his politics suck. Is this really an argument for us to get swing voters?

Posted by: Dave | Jul 1, 2004 3:47:16 PM

Bill Clinton often claims that the hardest, most important, job he ever had was that of father. This is a nice "feel good" line -- it makes us feel like Clinton is in touch with the values of common decency that most of us hold dear. But in his case it's also patently false. A big part of what made him a better President of the United States than George W. Bush is that he thought being President of the United States was the hardest, most important job he ever had.

Clinton says he thinks "X". But Matthew Yglesias knows Clinton really thought "Y".

Frankly, Matt, this is extraordinary hubris and, I would bet, patently false. Clinton was, by every description a policy wonk from a young age, and certainly immersed in politics, by choice, almost his whole adult life. While being President was challenging, it quite possibly wasn't the hardest thing -- to him -- because what it demanded came rather naturally to him.

Being a father quite possibly took, to him, a whole different set of skills that didn't come as naturally, and raised a whole specter of issues from his own past. I suspect that for Bill Clinton, being a good father (and a good husband) was a much harder job than being President. But that's just my suspicion -- as well as what he himself says -- I won't pretend to know what he thinks better than he does.


Posted by: cmdicely | Jul 1, 2004 4:17:28 PM


Regarding your essay, which looks like it will be a good one: using "psychology" and embarassing details about private life to discredit public people has been around as long as psychology has. In psychoanalysis, for example, no one ever gets a clean bill of health. Some are allowed to have handled their humiliating, dirty sexual nature a little less badly than others.

In Lit Crit, back a generation when queer was bad, critics were ALWAYS finding homoerotic themes in any writing that had two males in it.

Freud himself did a psychosexual study of Woodrow Wilson for Kaiser Wilhelm. If he'd had acess to today's snooping resources I'm sure that we'd know a LOT more about Woodrow's pecker and butthole than we do today . A darn shame.

Basically, everyone is sort of ridiculous and smelly if you look at them closely enough and go through their laundry basket, and today (partly because of new information technologies and a media explosian) it's gone far beyond the ridiculous to the disgusting.

Posted by: Zizka | Jul 1, 2004 4:19:20 PM

Bush schedule:

7 am: Wake up. Breakfast in bed. Sports scores. Maybe get lucky
8:00 Run
8:30: Shower
9:00: Condi and George read me stuff. I sign things. Phone DeLay and Frist. Karen & Karl
9:30 Meet foreign guys
10:00 Meet cabinet guys
11-1 Lunch.
1-2 Computer games, to relax after hectic morning
3:00 Fund raising phone calls
4-7 Plane ride to wherever;nap
7-8: Fundraising speech; meet donor guys
8-11: plane ride home; bedtime; maybe get lucky

Posted by: bob mcmanus | Jul 1, 2004 4:31:29 PM

:: quote
Once an interview turns to actual issues (which didn't happen 'til 'After the Show' on Oprah) one thing strikes me most of all -- even three-plus years removed from office it almost seems Clinton is still trying harder at the job of President than Bush.
:: unquote

My normally Oprah-free TiVo caught that half-hour, and it was great television. The shots to the audience as Clinton outlined his thinking on terrorism and foreign relations were priceless: people genuinely paying attention, listening, thinking themselves. It belied the cliché that Americans, in general, aren't interested in detail. They've been *starved* of detail -- and of engaged commitment to detail -- and when they get it, they appreciate it.

What interested me in the Starr report wasn't the salacious stuff, but the everyday accounts of Clinton staying up till the small hours, sending out for pizza, trying to get work done. I knew people like that at college, and I respected them immensely. (And yes, a few of them did have the occasional tryst, usually in the theology library.)

::quote
I curious as to what makes you think Bush doesn't work hard at his job?
::unquote

Perhaps it's all the press coverage, much of it directly from the White House, describing how Dubya tries to keep the same office hours as he did when Texas Governor -- a job with much lighter executive duties than Texas Lt. Gov., let alone President? Perhaps it's the multitude of photo-ops at his fake ranch? Or the knowledge that he likes every issue summarised on a single sheet of paper, which is then read out to him?

Posted by: nick | Jul 1, 2004 4:40:00 PM

While many of your points regarding the mixing of private lives and public accountability are well taken and deserve more debate, I feel compelled to remind you and your readers that Clinton's REAL mistake was not what he did with an intern, but what he did with a Grand Jury. This little point was not "glossed over" - it was omitted. Clinton lied to a Grand Jury. Under oath. Whether or not the subject of his infidelity should have even been opened is another issue entirely and does not make the case for liberal vs. conservative morals. Once it was, we cannot escape the fact that he lied under oath. Once you allow someone to lie simply to save their own hide, where DO you draw the line between what you would allow and what you can demand?

I see bumper stickers everywhere that say, "When Clinton lied, no one died" and find them peculiarly smug as these sentiments breezily pass over the fact that Clinton REALLY lied - and was caught, while Bush has never been shown to have lied. The fact that many on the left would LIKE to continue to insist that Bush lied, still doesn't actually produce any hard evidence. This is particularly interesting since to continue their insistence it has become necessary to ignore the pertinent fact that many Dems reviewed the same intelligence info which the President and his staff did in deciding to go to war with Iraq...and drew the same conclusions.

The biggest isse with any liberal argument - as far as I can see - is that any moral or even factual basis is always a moving target. Lying is bad...except when it is not. Intelligence is sufficient for decision-making unless or until the decision becomes "unpopular" or is made by the "wrong" side.

At the heart of this essay, though, which is truly alarming given the title of the piece, is the inference that morality is not only unnecessary but perhaps even inappropriate for public office. This is almost funny given the title of the piece, "Their Morals and Ours." The basis for this argument is the convenient construct that morality as a system can be reduced to whether a public figure could keep his pants zipped. Morality encompasses far more than sexual behavior. And Clinton's lies to a Grand Jury to save his hide say far more about his morality than his sexual exploits. This is where the disconnect comes in for the left, and why, once again, the predeliction of the left to embrace a "moral" system that is based on convenience, rationalization and relativism - "nuanced" doublespeak for "whatever-I-want-to-do-whenever-I-want-to-do-it-as-long-as-I-can-formulate-a-hopelessly-involved-and-impossibly-complicated-explanation-and-if-need-be-am-able-to-equate-my-actions-with-the-highest-good-or-my-opponent's-with-Hitler" is so understanable.

That Clinton was a womanizer and adulterer was common knowledge in the Democratic primaries when he first surfaced from Arkansas. That he embarrassed the office of the Presidency by his actions should suprise no one. That he LIED about it - repeatedly and all the way to a Grand Jury - should give all of us serious pause. That it doesn't concern the left at all gives me serious pause.

Posted by: rightmeansright | Jul 1, 2004 4:52:54 PM

The issue isn't that morality is inappropriate for public office-as one of the previous commenters seems to claiming you and Schmitt said-it's the type of morality. Jimmy Carter is Exhibit A: a good man whose good traits actively interfered with him being a good President (eg being so concerned with the hostages' safety that he couldn't take effective action). Good political leaders are aggressive risk-takers who like power and are willing to devote their lives to being leaders. As you say, that makes them poor family-man material. I greatly admire Jimmy Carter as a person, and don't admire Clinton personally at all, but there's no question Clinton was the superior president. Other examples abound (FDR, JFK). Our current obsessions with personal morality, and also with "likeability" over competence are very unfortunate. The type of morality that IS important in a political leader is (1) he/she cares about using his/her role for the public good, not merely for personal power or aggrandizement, and (2) he/she is willing to level with the public (including admitting mistakes and changing course) when needed. By these yardsticks, Clinton beats Bush by a mile. Consensual sexual conduct just isn't relevant.

Posted by: Rebecca Allen, PhD | Jul 1, 2004 5:28:38 PM

Wow, the idea that someone can claim that Bush has never *lied* is a sign of a serious disconnect from the world of facts. Rightmeansright, you have a bright future as a Republican flunky. Don't presume to lecture _us_ about morals.

Posted by: Walt Pohl | Jul 1, 2004 7:44:39 PM

When did he lie to the American people (under OATH!) and what evidence has been produced that proves it? Not conjecture, not propoganda, not fond wishes. Evidence. "You are entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts." Great quote. I wish I knew who said it!

"Bush lied about WMD's" has been the battle cry on the left since almost the beginning. WMD's have just been found in Iraq - 16 to 17. Enough for you? Not to mention the one that was already used on American troops. That one clearly wasn't enough for the left.

This refusal by the left to acknowledge errors in left-leaning accusations is exactly what I was trying to point out against the background of the essay on morals. That both morals and FACTS are a moving target for leftists. Once the battle cry has been raised among the "groupthink" leftists on an issue, there is no changing the screaming invectives. Interestingly enough, facts which contradict the "party line" only seem to increase the volume of screaming, not silence it as they should. I am reminded of the joke about the man who persisted in trying to communicate with someone who didn't speak his language. When it was clear that he wasn't being understood, he simply yelled louder and louder!

So unless you can present proof that Bush lied, I will presume to lecture you on morals because you obviously don't understand the subtle distinction between LYING UNDER OATH TO A GRAND JURY and NOT LYING AT ALL. I assure you, there is one. Try is sometime. Most people who do find there is a very clear legal distinction.

Posted by: rightmeansright | Jul 1, 2004 8:48:32 PM

The biggest issue with rightmeansright's perspective - as far as I can see - is that his moral or even factual basis is a moving target. Lying is bad...except when it is not. Intelligence is sufficient for decision-making unless or until the decision becomes "unpopular" or is made by the "wrong" side.

Posted by: JP | Jul 2, 2004 12:37:50 AM

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