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Lazy Europeans
All right! An evidence-free debate about why Europeans don't work more. When I'm engaging in a priori speculation, I like to make my theories maximally offensive. So how about this. Given all the destructive wars and emigration to Areas of Recent Settlement, Europe is basically populated by (genetically) lazy and risk-averse people because everyone else ran off to another continent or else got shot trying to storm trenches somewhere. Here in the USA we have the good sense to try and mainly beat up on ill-equipped Native Americans or Fallujans or some such thing, so the gung-ho tend to deliver. And consider that most of the European expatriates I know in the states are highly skilled professionals drawn to a country they bitch about endlessly for the sake of career opportunities of some sort or other. Conversely, most of the American expatriates I've met in Europe are marginally employed loafers who seem to be under the impression that they're writing a novel/screenplay/whatever.
High European taxes are just the epiphenomenon floating gentling above the underlying genetic superiority of the North American. Of course to really make this go, we'd have to ask about the work habits of Chileans and Argentinians. Tricky. [Incidentally, the other thing I've heard is that European tax rates are higher because European tax systems are more regressive, so the resistance to higher rates of taxation wasn't as furious or well-funded. Is any of that true?]
November 9, 2004 | Permalink
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Comments
Let me be the first to say: nonsense.
Posted by: praktike | Nov 9, 2004 10:11:48 AM
You seem to be channeling Robert A. Heinlein.
Posted by: Bob Violence | Nov 9, 2004 10:18:46 AM
As a general rule (Each European country's tax code is different as far as rates, etc.), Europe tends to tax labour heavier than the U.S., while the U.S. taxes corporations and capital formation at a higher rate.
There is an interesting analysis in Peter Lindert's new book "Growing Public" about the genesis of the Welfare state in modern history. One of his more interesting points is that Europe can afford to have a more generous social transfer apparatus because their tax codes are not as detrimental to growth on a dollar to dollar basis. That is, they can levy higher taxes and garner larger receipts without denting growth as much as a comparable level of taxation in the U.S. would.
Posted by: DS | Nov 9, 2004 10:35:07 AM
Are you drunk?
Posted by: enzo rossi | Nov 9, 2004 10:35:33 AM
Well, you could also say that the people that emmigrated couldn't cut it, so they had to leave. Now, we have a country that can only express it's frustration at not having won a centuries long battle for eminence in the first place by becoming thugs, and that Europeans are smugly viewing the entire spectacle from their lounge chairs.
Posted by: Sigfried | Nov 9, 2004 10:36:26 AM
Commenters: Let's make sure our irony-detectors are oiled and in good working order.
Posted by: Micah | Nov 9, 2004 10:45:15 AM
Try this one: On the first day of the Battle of the Somme, British casualties were 60,000. 19,000 of them were killed. One day in a four year war, and the British apparently lost a lower proportion of their population than several other countries (although perhaps a higher percentage of college graduates).
Gene O'Grady
Posted by: Gene O'Grady | Nov 9, 2004 10:50:00 AM
For a hard-working Murcan, Matthew, you seem to have time on your hands in which to come up with a whole heap of idle speculation.
Posted by: Yurpeen | Nov 9, 2004 10:51:16 AM
Comedy platinum matt.
I too think that discussion is a tad ridiculous--it's fairly obvious that a confluence of factors are responsible for social differences of this magnitude. I think will probably has a point that tax rates have an impact, but it's fairly absurd to attribute the whole thing to one cause.
Posted by: Glenn Bridgman | Nov 9, 2004 11:00:34 AM
MY: And consider that most of the European expatriates I know in the states are highly skilled professionals drawn to a country they bitch about endlessly for the sake of career opportunities of some sort or other. Conversely, most of the American expatriates I've met in Europe are marginally employed loafers who seem to be under the impression that they're writing a novel/screenplay/whatever.
Anectodal as that assessment is, it's still funny.
On a serious note, I think this is your first entry in some time that has "red state" appeal.
Way to let the "healing begin."
Posted by: SoCalJustice | Nov 9, 2004 11:00:48 AM
You forgot to mention the plummeting European birthrate as proof of their genetic inferiority. ;)
Posted by: Jeff the Baptist | Nov 9, 2004 11:01:38 AM
1> Let me be the first to say: nonsense.
2> Are you drunk?
Um, I don't think Matthew is necessarily _serious_ about these propositions...
Cranky
Posted by: Cranky Observer | Nov 9, 2004 11:04:34 AM
I should hope not; Any good geneticist could tell you that polygenetic traits don't evolve significantly on that kind of timeframe.
Posted by: Brett Bellmore | Nov 9, 2004 11:11:44 AM
All this talk about working more or less because of the tax code ridiculous. As if I can magically lengthen or shorten my work week. I work a 40 hour week because that's what my employer tells me to work. I work a 40 week because of the law. Wait, my property taxes just went through the roof, I think I'll shorten my work hours. Seriously, I don't know anyone that can work more or less depending on what they think. Everyone I know works as much as the employer tells them to. Show me one goddamn person who woke up the morning after the Bush tax cut and demanded an increase in work and pay and actually got it.
Posted by: Jason | Nov 9, 2004 11:18:27 AM
Maybe Europeans are lazy because they like spending time with their families. Your linked article is correct: proper tax incentives would surely undermine that unhealthy effect.
Posted by: wagster | Nov 9, 2004 11:22:40 AM
Conversely, most of the American expatriates I've met in Europe are marginally employed loafers who seem to be under the impression that they're writing a novel/screenplay/whatever.
Actually, most of the American expatriates I've met in Europe are severely overemployed MBAs who are ruthlessly professional and yet incapable of managing effectively. (Partly because they don't understand why their underlings leave the office at 6pm, having actually done the work they needed in regular hours.)
Posted by: ahem | Nov 9, 2004 11:50:55 AM
"And consider that most of the European expatriates I know in the states are highly skilled professionals drawn to a country they bitch about endlessly for the sake of career opportunities of some sort or other. Conversely, most of the American expatriates I've met in Europe are marginally employed loafers who seem to be under the impression that they're writing a novel/screenplay/whatever."
All the other (presumably deliberate) silliness of this post aside, this is clearly selection bias. When you're in the US, you're more likely to be working, so you're running in to more people in work situations. When you're in Europe, you're loafing around, so more of the people you see, European and American, are also loafing.
Posted by: MattT | Nov 9, 2004 11:55:29 AM
"And consider that most of the European expatriates I know in the states are highly skilled professionals drawn to a country they bitch about endlessly for the sake of career opportunities of some sort or other. Conversely, most of the American expatriates I've met in Europe are marginally employed loafers who seem to be under the impression that they're writing a novel/screenplay/whatever."
All the other (presumably deliberate) silliness of this post aside, this is clearly selection bias. When you're in the US, you're more likely to be working, so you're running in to more people in work situations. When you're in Europe, you're loafing around, so more of the people you see, European and American, are also loafing.
Posted by: MattT | Nov 9, 2004 11:56:01 AM
> "lazy europeans"
from old europe a big ROTFL !
matthew boy,
with your kind permission, we'll continue solving our problems ourselves as it best fits us. we in europe have a very long, rich and varied culture of social experiments which have led us to evolve into what we are today. religious nuttery, imperialism and fascism are some of the experiments which have failed over here and most of us are happy with that. i understand that these are all popular things in your country, but we prefer to have decent paying jobs, good healthcare, the mafia in jail rather than in government, we like our cities to look like cities rather than industrial zones, and our politicians can walk in the street without need of a security detail as if they were going into a battle zone.
despite the fact that most of us bitch to no end about our political class and system, i personally look askance at any american doing same. you people are not even capable of holding proper elections and want to tell us anything about taxes, "laziness" and how to go about our business ?
learn how to manage your own country before you even think of telling us how to go about business here. with exception of those countries who look to the US as an example, we're doing rather fine. and as far as i know, no european has to say he or she is from canada when going to another country.
you need to think a bit harder before you open your mouth, boy. thats some good and free advice from a european.
Posted by: name | Nov 9, 2004 12:00:03 PM
FYI, for most of us lazy Yurpeans, the big quality of life advantage to our work culture, and the point you've really got to convince us on, is the five or six weeks vacation instead of 10 days. Not the 35 hours versus however-many. Plenty people in Dublin work more than 35 hours a week.
Posted by: seanoshaughnessy | Nov 9, 2004 12:00:31 PM
Hey Brett Bellmore,
Matt's playing with a genes-causing-behavior time scale, not behavior-causing-genes.
You go to the dance and the shy folk head as far into the corners as possible, like my ancestors heading for Ireland and Norway until stopped by the fjords and the sea.
Posted by: yesh | Nov 9, 2004 12:04:05 PM
Matt's best post ever. EUrabians are culturally and genetically inferior. They are lazy. They are useless. They are worthless bums. They are parasites. And they smell.
Posted by: Modern Crusader | Nov 9, 2004 12:06:04 PM
My take on the lazy Europeans, based on conversations with European co-workers, is that in Europe they work shorter hours, but get more done. There aren't as many time-wasting meetings, BS reports, etc. Because everyone knows they are all leaving at five, there isn't the competitiveness of who worked the most hours that you have in the US.
Posted by: Contary Mary | Nov 9, 2004 12:12:03 PM
Name: It's a joke.
Posted by: Walt Pohl | Nov 9, 2004 12:22:13 PM
Name writes: and our politicians can walk in the street without need of a security detail as if they were going into a battle zone.
Anna Lindh, Pym Fortuyn, and Olaf Palme - as well as their families - appreciate your condescension and lack of concern.
Posted by: SoCalJustice | Nov 9, 2004 12:34:11 PM
