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No, No, No, No!
Someone has to tell Ben Nelson that it's time to start paying some attention to what's going on:
Some Democrats looking for a ray of light in the election argued that [Senator Harry] Reid's amiability might make it harder for the White House to demonize him.This "immunization fallacy" needs to be combatted in all its manifestations. People thought after the 2000 election that it wouldn't be possible to demonize Tom Daschle, the soft-spoken veteran moderate Senator from very red South Dakota, but it was. People thought during the 2004 primary that it wouldn't be possible to demonize John Kerry, the war hero, as weak on national security (Kerry himself repeatedly asserted this), but it was. It's not impossible to demonize anyone, especially when the accuracy of your charges is entirely unrelated to your willingness to make them or to the media's willingness to cover them in a damaging manner. Reid will be subject to a demonization campaign. If Jeb Bush wins the Democratic nomination in 2008, he will be subject to a demonization campaign. The question is what are you going to do about it?"When the conservative talk show hosts start saying bad things about Harry Reid, it will be like attacking Mr. Rogers," Senator Ben Nelson, Democrat of Nebraska, said of Mr. Reid, who shares Mr. Rogers's affection for a cardigan.
November 14, 2004 | Permalink
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» Reality from TheConsulate.org
From Matt Yglesias, who I'll soon add to the blogroll: Someone has to tell Ben Nelson that it's time to start paying some attention to what's going on: Some Democrats looking for a ray of light in the election argued... [Read More]
Tracked on Nov 14, 2004 12:25:31 PM
» Throw the slave moralizers off the ship from Lawyers, Guns and Money
But I know one thing: Democrats who repeat these lazy, incredibly destructive media scripts are the part of the problem we can solve. Purge every one of these assholes from the upper reaches of the party. Now. [Read More]
Tracked on Nov 14, 2004 1:07:59 PM
» Matthew Yglesias: No, No, No, No! from Brendan Nyhan
Matthew Yglesias speaks the truth: Someone has to tell Ben Nelson that it's time to start paying some attention to what's going on: Some Democrats looking for a ray of light in the election argued that [Senator Harry] Reid's amiability [Read More]
Tracked on Nov 14, 2004 10:17:36 PM
Comments
Likewise, in the words of Thomas Jefferson "...there is no act, however virtuous, for which ingenuity may not find some bad motive."
(I freely admit to have been looking for a chance to use this quote).
Posted by: Davon | Nov 14, 2004 11:50:58 AM
Amen. Decency is stone cold dead.
Posted by: old grizzly | Nov 14, 2004 11:52:08 AM
I don't know much about Nelson except for the fact that he voted for Bush's 2003 tax cut, one of only two Senate Dems to do so (take a wild guess who the other one was). So I don't think he's worth listening to on much of anything, although the idea he's putting forward in that quote is indeed worthy of being slapped with a reality check.
Posted by: Haggai | Nov 14, 2004 11:58:18 AM
The Democratic Party needs to realize that any Democrat will be demonized as a gay-marrying, America-hating, flag-burning, tax-raising, child-molesting liberal by the GOP.
There's no stopping it. There's no "moving rightward enough", there's no "compromise". It's 100% support, or they bring out the traitor baton.
Since that's the case, we might as well say "Fuck the GOP" and nominate officials who stand for what we want. Compromise is dead. Maybe once the current incarnation of the GOP is soundly defeated and their ideas discredited can compromise and the other ideals of government be resurrected.
For now, though, the Democrats need to realize that politics isn't about the people anymore. It's about destroying all opposition to an agenda.
Posted by: Morat | Nov 14, 2004 12:14:33 PM
I'm a conservative -- not a Reublican -- who voted for Bush, and I suppose it's natural that I should be more aware of the "demonization" that came from the left (Bush=Hitler, Chimpski, "jokes" about assassinating the President,etc.), but I yearn for an end to the "demonization" on both sides.
Wouldn't it be nice if we could speak to one another with a little more civility?
Posted by: Notary | Nov 14, 2004 12:26:54 PM
It certainly didn't stop the radical cleric Rev. Phelps from attacking Mr. Rogers, even at the guy's funeral.
Posted by: R. Porrofatto | Nov 14, 2004 12:37:14 PM
Screw you, notary. :)
Posted by: bob mcmanus | Nov 14, 2004 12:37:57 PM
If Jesus Christ were to run as a Democrat tomorrow, the Republicans would be hitting him for his weak stance on crime.
What the Democrats have to do is punch back - come up with an actual worldview an then pillory the Republicans for failing to meet it. The Republicans, after all, aren't really pushing ideas so much as character assassination.
Posted by: Mike Collins | Nov 14, 2004 12:45:01 PM
Notary, it's faster to type if you drop the extra H and the equals sign and just elide the two words together. Just a friendly tip.
Posted by: praktike | Nov 14, 2004 12:46:07 PM
I totally agree... people need to remember that what actually happens matters much less than how people interpret what actually happens... and there are quite a number of outlets whose sole purpose is to supply people with interpretations favorable to their political agenda. Which, I believe, is represented by what MY so affectionately calls the "Hack Gap"...
Posted by: taak | Nov 14, 2004 12:49:26 PM
Add Max Cleland to your list. And they are also working hard on Leahy.
Posted by: jdw | Nov 14, 2004 12:51:06 PM
Democrats have been stomped on by Rightwing radio hosts and media for over 30 years, non-stop. Before Carter was inaugurated, a constant drumbeat of demonizing Carter had begun... it was OLD before Carter was even INAUGURATED. And the Republicans haven't stopped the hate and attacks since. The Republicans started it, and have never stopped. Even when a Democrat who is so moderate that he could be a Republican (Carter, Clinton) he gets attacked NONSTOP with the wackiest lies that the American public laps up simply because they are entertaining and play on peoples' worst instincts, which is a winning combo. Even Zell Miller was demonized by Republicans when he was the Democrat governor of Georgia. ZELL MILLER. Did you hear me? They even demonized ZELL MILLER!!!! Need I say more?
Posted by: Hephaestion | Nov 14, 2004 1:06:34 PM
Another important fallacy is the backfire myth... the idea that a particular, vile piece of propaganda is going to "backfire" and reduce support for the body propagating it... This is "true" in the sense that it makes the person saying it feel better about the vile piece of propaganda, but is not true in the sense of being supported by evidential reasoning. It will backfire so long as you make it backfire, not by some innate property of the appeal itself. Sitting back and waiting for all these unfair attacks to backfire is suicidal. But that hasn't stopped them from trying.
Posted by: taak | Nov 14, 2004 1:24:55 PM
bob mcmanus -- I take it that "Screw you" is your way of expressing disagreement. It's how we used to do it on the playground when I was a kid.
Some of us have gone on to a more substantive style.
Or, perhaps "Screw you" is your idea of civility?
Posted by: Notary | Nov 14, 2004 1:31:31 PM
Notary,
Democrats have tried civility. Look where it got us. So, indeed, screw you and all of your ilk. 48% of us are pissed off. We just have to find 3% more. And we will.
So, again, affectionately, screw you.
Posted by: John Casey | Nov 14, 2004 1:35:48 PM
What the Democrats have to do is punch back - come up with an actual worldview an then pillory the Republicans for failing to meet it.
Why don't we start by framing truth-telling as a "moral value" and pillory the Republicans for failing to live up to it?
As long as they continue to get away with lies, nothing else we put forward is going to do any good.
Posted by: Swift Loris | Nov 14, 2004 1:47:24 PM
Mike Collins -- If Jesus Christ should run for office -- for either party -- and if he should offer 'turning the other cheek' as a program for dealing with crime, I for one would certainly denounce this "weak stance".
It was Republicans who, for many years pushed the idea that criminals were more to be punished that pitied.
Eventually and begrudgingly -- the Democrats came to accept that Republican notion. And -- Lo and behold! -- with more criminals in jail, the crime rate has fallen sharply.
I agree with you that Democrats ought to "come up with an actual worldview." It's hard to hold a serious discussion with people who don't have one.
Posted by: Notary | Nov 14, 2004 1:48:34 PM
...but I yearn for an end to the "demonization" on both sides.
(emphasis mine)
What always undermines the sincerity of appeals like this is that while they can reel off a laundry list of supposed incivilities of the left and are supposedly disturbed by bad behavior on both sides, they never, ever, cite a single example of conservative vitriol.
Amazing, isn't it? It's as if they really don't believe the right has ever been uncivil.
Oh, wait.
Posted by: jbm | Nov 14, 2004 1:54:19 PM
I continue to be amazed at how hard it is for the Dem leadership to understand that this is war. Pelosi and Obama were making bipartisan noises on one of the Sunday shows a few weeks ago, and Liberal Oasis gave them a well-deserved smackdown over it. A lot of the rank-and-file get it; I think that was the motive behind a lot of the support for Dean--he gets it. But the leadership keeps believing we're back in the pre-90's era, when both parties accepted each other's existence and did a lot of horse trading. That era was over when Clinton was elected, and it's not coming back for the forseeable future. For evidence, look at 1994, Starr, the impeachment, 2000, 2002 and 2004. The Republicans are out to eliminate the progressive movement and the Democratic party as meaningful forces for at least a generation. It's WAY past time for the leadership to understand this, and adjust their strategy accordingly. It may take a complete housecleaning before this can happen.
Posted by: Rebecca Allen, PhD | Nov 14, 2004 2:15:42 PM
Moreover, conflating blog comments with multi-million dollar media campaigns is a bit silly. One side has members that make hyperbolic internet posts (actually both sides do this) and another has a leadership that runs well-funded media campaigns to do the same thing. So, both sides "demonize" since 0 parts of each side do it to a 0 degree. Further, we can conclude there is no sense in moderating oneself since people who think this way won't be able to see the difference.
Posted by: taak | Nov 14, 2004 2:21:10 PM
The same guy who oh so sincerely wrote this:
Wouldn't it be nice if we could speak to one another with a little more civility?
Is the same guy who said this:
It was Republicans who, for many years pushed the idea that criminals were more to be punished that pitied. Eventually and begrudgingly -- the Democrats came to accept that Republican notion..
And:
...Democrats ought to "come up with an actual worldview." It's hard to hold a serious discussion with people who don't have one.
Is it any wonder that one's first reaction is to paraphrase Dick Cheney's lovely civil comment to Pat Leahy?
Posted by: R. Porrofatto | Nov 14, 2004 2:26:09 PM
Tom Daschle was indistinguishable from a doormat, and the Rethugs demonized him. Appeasement doesn't work. If the DLC-style Dems can't (or won't) understand this simple fact of life, then they need to get out of the way for the people who do. Fuck this not-fighting-back shit.
Posted by: John D. | Nov 14, 2004 2:31:24 PM
It's amazing. They find these "acceptable" leaders who weren't targets before, and make them targets. The GOP will take Reid down, too, the same way they did Daschle. They never seem to realize that the closest you can get to bullet-proof is to be a real Democrat in a real Democratic state.
Posted by: Avedon | Nov 14, 2004 2:37:25 PM
Hey, Notary, perhaps you might have been better off asking for civility from your conservabuddies when they were busily smearing and lying and calling Democrats terrorist-lovin' baby-killers? Clean up your own pond first.
Posted by: ahem | Nov 14, 2004 2:45:17 PM
I am frequently irritated and angered by the ineptitude of some in my party. Rarely am I just thoroughly disgusted. But these miserably weak Nelson comments are the very bottom.
What does it take to make these guys fight back? How long before these abject submissives realize that curling up into an ever tighter ball is no way to end the barrage of kicks and punches?
Cardigans? We are being attacked by wolves, so their strategy is to don actual sheep suits, and hope that when the attacks come the public will think the Republicans are too mean and *feel sorry for us*!? How can they expect the public to trust Democrats to defend the poor, the unemployed, American workers and farmers, the nation's security and children if they are unwilling even to fight to defend themselves?
By the way, outside the family rooms of moms of young kids, Mr. Rogers was himself a frequent butt of popular scorn and lampoonery. Being a sweetheart like Fred Rogers is no guarantee against attack.
I think Reid may be a decent choice, for other reasons. I like the fact that the Democrats are looking to the West, and there are few choices for us out there. But the fact that he is a kindly gentleman is no selling point in my book.
Posted by: Dan Kervick | Nov 14, 2004 2:46:04 PM
The volume of shit coming from the Left is an order of magnitude LESS than that coming from the Right--and it has been coming from the Right for at least the last decade.
Oh sure, the Bush=Hitler people are pretty easy to find today and I'm sure we'll hear more from them in the next four years. But Michael Moore and the other crazies of the Left are outnumbered and outgunned by Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter, Savage, and all their followers. Moore has no message other than 'Bush is evil' (though he's working on expanding it), while the conservative hacks I just mentioned have been harping on the 'liberals are evil' theme for years.
Its a difference in scale. I hate Moore for his abuse of the facts, but he's only just getting started. Limbaugh has been doing it for well over a decade while Hannity and Coulter just keep getting louder and dumber... and keep winning over more 'converts' in the process.
Posted by: Bolo | Nov 14, 2004 3:01:44 PM
R. Porrofatto - It was one of your Democratic posters (Mike Collins) who said that Democrats ought to "come up with an actual worldview."
I was merely quoting him. Good-humoredly, I thought.
And, yes, I the same guy who said this:
It was Republicans who, for many years pushed the idea that criminals were more to be punished that pitied. Eventually and begrudgingly -- the Democrats came to accept that Republican notion..
Does that stike you as incivility?
ahem - No buddy of mine ever referred to Democrats as "terrorist-lovin' baby-killers." If anyone ever said such a thing, that person is a disgusting asshole. I'm curious if you could refer me to a conservative website where such things are said. I'll make the same plea for civility to them as I make to you folks. And probably get the same "screw you" response.
I really do believe that the country would be better off if extremist rhetoric were moderated on both sides.
Posted by: Notary | Nov 14, 2004 3:17:06 PM
There may be good reasons for Reid getting the job (I don't know), but being immune from demonization isn't one of them. They're already cranking up the demonizer for Specter! And his crime was just suggesting the Emperor might want to dress warmly in winter, not even pointing out that he is wearing no clothes. We've gotta stop this juvenile hoping that the "cool kids" will stop picking on us, and start making it cooler to be one of the people they are picking on.
Posted by: Paul | Nov 14, 2004 3:26:38 PM
Notary,
I agree, it would be nice to have more civility in politics. However, that's not going to happen. Why? Because there are almost no people on the right in America who have any interest in it. And this isn't by accident -- it's good politics for the right. Arguments that are civil and focus on facts are arguments the right is almost always going to lose.
Moreover -- as others have noted above -- even those like yourself who do have such an interest in civility also have an incredibly skewed perception of reality. To equate the actions of progressives with conservatives in this area is absolutely preposterous.
Yes, you can find scattered instances of marginal progressives demonizing the right in obscure venues. Meanwhile, the right has some of the country's most powerful politicians and media figures steering a relentless, well-funded attack machine. These are not the same thing.
Posted by: A Tiny | Nov 14, 2004 3:33:41 PM
A Tiny -- Would you be willing to tell me what words of mine suggest to you that I have "an incredibly skewed perception of reality"?
Posted by: Notary | Nov 14, 2004 3:40:11 PM
Notary,
Here's an example, in the field of "jokes about assasinating the president."
A. You say someone somewhere made jokes about assasinating Bush. No example is given.
B. Jesse Helm, one of the most senior members of the Republican party, says that if Bill Clinton comes to North Carolina "he better bring some bodyguards."
These are not the same thing. They are particularly not the same thing when you consider the America's long history of right-wing nutjobs SHOOTING PROGRESSIVE LEADERS IN THE HEAD.
Posted by: A Tiny | Nov 14, 2004 3:44:36 PM
Notary,
From Andrew Sullivan, who until Bush recommended a constitional ammendment banning gay marriage, was as much a Bush-supporter as anyone could possibly be wrote the following:
"decadent left enclaves on the coasts [that] may well mount a fifth column."
We've also been compared to appeasers.
Posted by: dms | Nov 14, 2004 3:52:22 PM
Fred Rogers wants you to think he's in favor of democracy, but in reality, he supports a puppet monarchy. And his affectation of wearing a cardigan clearly shows he is out of touch with the heartland.
Posted by: sc | Nov 14, 2004 3:57:59 PM
Dirt on Reid would be pretty easy to find. Having grown up in Las Vegas and met Reid in 1982, I know some C-grade sketchy things. It's not worth repeating, sorry, no need for fuel for the fire. Suffice it to say that it's much less than anything in Bob Kerrey's Nebraska past.
But whatever they decide to say about Reid, the power of slime to stick to a person is exactly related to how they come off in public, and Daschle is much more slime-sticky than Reid. They could call him all kinds of things, but when he appears in public, there's a moment where even the least intelligent among us will test what they've heard versus what they see. Reid is perfectly competent and comes off as an always-reasonable school teacher. The sludge will have a hard time sticking to him like it stuck to Daschle.
Posted by: djangone | Nov 14, 2004 3:59:51 PM
Notary,
Here's a second example.
A. Some progressives somewhere use threatening language on some obscure website.
B. James Watt, a former member of Reagan's cabinet, says, "if the troubles from environmentalists cannot be solved in the jury box or at the ballot box, perhaps the cartridge box should be used."
Find me an example of someone from Clinton or Carter's cabinet saying something like this. Find me an example of the senior Democrat on one of the main committees in the Senate saying something like what Helms said.
You can't. And even if you could find such examples they wouldn't be equivalent, because progressives in America do not have the record of putting this sort of threat into action, while conservatives do.
If you want to see a similar situation, look at Israel. Sure, there must be some progressives somewhere who speak in threatening ways about Ariel Sharon. Meanwhile, some of the most powerful politicians and rabbis used extremely threatening language about Rabin. And guess what? SOMEONE SHOT HIM IN THE HEAD.
I'm sure if you were in Israel, you'd be making exactly the same plea for civility. And your perception of reality there would be just as skewed.
Posted by: A Tiny | Nov 14, 2004 4:01:31 PM
Perhaps someone mentioned this already, I did read the whole thread. Anyway: the only way to counter inevitable demonization is to make sure the leader is from a safe state, Massachusetts, for example. Then he/she can simply ignore it. Why not Kennedy? He can't be demonized any worse than he has been already.
Posted by: abb1 | Nov 14, 2004 4:11:37 PM
And speaking of the parallels between this subject here and in Israel, the Israeli equivalent of the secret service is very concerned about Ariel Sharon being assassinated like Rabin.
But the threat doesn't come from the left. It comes from the right. You got it -- Sharon isn't conservative enough.
Likewise, the democrats could reanimate Ronald Reagan and install him as their leader and there would be no "civility" from the right wing. They will never be mollified. And believe me, Notary, once they've finished us off, they'll come for you. Then they will declare war on anyone to the left of Pat Robertson. Then anyone to the left of Fred Phelps. And finally it will be just Ann Coulter, covered in blood, sitting in a room by herself.
Then, she will declare war on her feet.
Posted by: A Tiny | Nov 14, 2004 4:12:08 PM
I was involved in a discussion on THIS blog a few days ago where Al and Co. were referring to us as terrorist sympathizers.
Civility-pilgrimages to other blogs won't be necessary.
The "baby-killers" thing I have seen on Free Republic, along with references to killing or wounding Democrats and liberals. But that's hardly fair; FR is the cesspool of reactionary websites, and pretty much any bad thing can be found there if looked for long enough.
Admittedly, I have seen a tremendous increase of similar base language and expression on progressive sites over the past few years, much to my chagrin. I say let the Right own the hate. We don't need it to win.
Posted by: Windhorse | Nov 14, 2004 4:30:01 PM
Bush=Hitler, Chimpski, "jokes" about assassinating the President,etc
Really? The Democratic Party did that? I thought it was just a bunch of non-party cliques with few members and no power, instead of something equivalent to what Matt was describing.
Posted by: Toadmonster | Nov 14, 2004 4:43:22 PM
Windhorse,
I agree with you completely that it's important to leave the hate to the right. As you say, they need it to win, we don't. In fact, it hinders us. You may remember that the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee, even as members were being killed during the civil rights movement, opened every meeting with a call not for eliminating their opponents but reaching reconciliation with them.
But I'd also reiterate that even a big increase in hate on progressive websites is nowhere near equivalent to what you find on the right. To get anywhere close we'd have to have fringe Sierra Club members assassinating a Republican president, and Jerry Falwell, and Gordon Liddy, and impeach a Republican president over a blow job, and have Democratic senators saying a sitting Republican president better bring his bodyguards if he comes to Massachusetts, and Robert Reich talking today about using "the cartridge box" to deal with Bush's win.
Posted by: A Tiny | Nov 14, 2004 4:52:26 PM
jbm - I really do -- sincerely -- yearn for an end to the "demonization" on both sides.
I confess that, during the campaign, I was much more likely to vist the websites that supported my side, rather than yours. I suspect that most of us operated that way. I'm sure that conservative sites delighted in pointing out the vitriol that came from the left, and I feel confident that left/liberal sites were more apt to point out the vitriol that came from the right.
So, as I said, I was MORE aware of the insults that came from the left, but I certainly didn't mean to imply that there was none that came from the right.
I did, twice, e-mail Jonah Goldberg at NRO, asking him to moderate his abrasive tone. You can probably guess how much good that did.
But I never saw anything on the conservative sites which matched up with the constant refrain of "Bush=Hitler, Chimpski & Moron" which came from the left. And I saw no "jokes" about assassination from the right.
If such things existed and I missed them, I ask you to point it out to me, and I will thank you for the information.
I must add that it seems strange to me that you should refer to such things as "supposed" incivilities. Surely there is no need for supposition. Bush=Hitler, Chimpski, Moron, and jokes about assassination are about as crudely insulting as it is possible to get.
Posted by: Notary | Nov 14, 2004 5:08:57 PM
Notary,
If you're interested, I would strongly suggest that you visit David Niewert's site Ornicus. In particular, I would recommend the seven-part series on pseudo-fascism.
Posted by: Noel | Nov 14, 2004 5:35:41 PM
Notary, I don't mean to get too personal but are you serious?
Posted by: David Sucher | Nov 14, 2004 5:47:44 PM
Demonization can have more than one player.
Mr Bush is a failed president who has plunged our country into debt and lost the war in Iraq.
Posted by: bakho | Nov 14, 2004 5:53:33 PM
Notary,
If you want to know why I believe your perception of reality is extremely skewed, reread your post above. I'm well aware of Bush=Hitler references, but you apparently are totally unaware of the equivalent on your side during the recent election.
So... may I suggest you try Google?
Once you've done that, I also suggest you ponder how it is that I could be aware of the Bush=Hitler references, etc., while you were unaware of the equivalent on the your side.
Then, think about whether this situation could generalize. For instance, ask yourself why I'm aware of the 60 Minutes fiasco with the forged documents, but you're unaware of twenty other equivalent or worse fiascos that help Bush.
If you're curious what I mean by this, go here. That's the tip of a very, very, very large iceberg.
Posted by: A Tiny | Nov 14, 2004 6:06:23 PM
Notary,
I, too, would love to see the rhetoric toned down. But here I am, a liberal in liberal New York City. But when I turn on radio I hear nothing but the vilest lies, accusations, and distortions of who I am, nonstop, 24/7. It's no longer about political philosophy, it's reached the level of pure bigotry.
Now somehow, I seriously doubt that when my fellow citizens in the great heartland turn on their radios they hear nothing but non-stop vitriol coming from liberals and the left about their anti-Americanism, their traitorous behavior, and their decadent godless lifestyles.
So what do you suggest we do?
BTW, what makes this "uncivil"...
It was Republicans who, for many years pushed the idea that criminals were more to be punished that pitied. Eventually and begrudgingly -- the Democrats came to accept that Republican notion.
...is that it is patently untrue. To characterize Democrats as people who believed that criminals were more to be pitied than punished is to buy into the most simplistic of stereotypes, wholly invented by conservatives.
Posted by: R. Porrofatto | Nov 14, 2004 6:11:37 PM
Notary et al.,
Some 40 years ago I came to an incredible insight : "If everybody loved each other, the world would be a better place." Yes, I had inhaled! :) And yes I still believe this to be true. HOWEVER We have to play the game the way the refs interpret the rules. Essentially the refs are the mainstream media and they don't call fouls against the repugs. THey need to have those politicos on their shows so they don't challenge their veracity; the shows are entertainment for the masses. So the steps are to get vicious in return and to begin (please just freaking start) challenging the mediawhores. Yes the dems need a storyline. Part of it has got to be standing up for what we believe -- and we DO BELIEVE IN OURSELVES. Playing nicey pattycake in the sandbox won't work when the other kid is named Rove and will throw sand in your eyes, throw you out of the sandbox and then blame you for the whole thing.
Posted by: Trismegistus | Nov 14, 2004 7:04:22 PM
R. Porrofatto,
The stereotype you mention actually isn't wholly invented. That's the problem that Notary is struggling with. There actually is legitimate evidence that some Democrats somewhere at some time have taken such a position. Of course, the remainder of the evidence points in the other direction. But a person like Notary (apparently) lives in a bubble that filters out the preponderance of the evidence and highlights the outliers. Thus, he honestly comes to believe a preposterous stereotype.
And this bubble is far more pernicious than almost anyone recognizes. Take the WMD/Iraq issue. There was some (not much) legitimate evidence that Iraq had banned weapons. However, the vast preponderance pointed in the other direction. That's why I bet someone $1000 that Iraq had nothing.
I'm sure Notary honestly believed before the war Iraq had WMD, just as Notary honesty believes what he's saying now. He just isn't conscious of the filter information passes through before it gets to him.
The point is that there's SOME legitimate evidence for essentially anything you might want to believe. There are people who are 7'2". If you told an alien only about Shaq and Yao Ming, they'd think all people were over seven feet tall.
Posted by: A Tiny | Nov 14, 2004 7:09:59 PM
that brings up an interesting point.
One of the rpeferred tactics that I keep seeing used by the Other Side Of The Fence is a propensity to tar everyone with the same brush, and to also promote the most extreme voices as being more powerful than they are in reality. To look at some of the stuff I've seen come out from The Other Side, you'd imagine that Michael Moore and Terry McAuliffe gather for strategy sessions every night. We generally try to avoid doing that - linking together, for example, Gary North and Tom Delay (which is a tighter link that Michael Moore and Terry MacAuliffe), possibly for fear of being described as loonies. Still, I think it might be high time to tpoint out that one of the reasons Ashcroft was so lax on domestic terrorism was because his sympathies lied that way.
Posted by: Mike Collins | Nov 14, 2004 7:18:39 PM
"and impeach a Republican president over a blow job"
I am so sick of hearing that idiotic line I could puke.
Perjury. Subornation of perjury. Witness tampering. Obstruction of justice. They're all serious crimes in their own right, even if the only time he could be proven to have committed them, was when he tried to cover up a blow job in the Oval office.
Would I prefer that he'd been impeached over siccing the IRS on his political enemies, or having a man falsely prosecuted so he could pretend he was being fired for cause, or any of a dozen other things he did that proved he was unfit to hold office? Yes. Go pester Henry Hyde over that stupid decision.
But stop pretending that it's ok to organize a criminal conspiracy, and break a half dozen laws, as long as you're doing it to cover up a blow job.
And if you're honest, you might just stop to think: Was that REALLY the first time he'd ever obstructed justice? Or just the first time it didn't work...
Posted by: Brett Bellmore | Nov 14, 2004 8:06:31 PM
Notary - Go to the Little Green Footballs site - but put on your hip waders first.
Posted by: hyr | Nov 14, 2004 8:13:55 PM
Mr. Bellmore - More resources were put into trying to find anything to hang Bill Clinton with than were spent on the OJ trial. Millions and millions more. If there was anything, any friggin thing other than lying about the blow job, they would have hung him with it.
Reread this sentence you wrote, "But stop pretending that it's ok to organize a criminal conspiracy, and break a half dozen laws, as long as you're doing it to cover up a blow job." The point is still the blow job, is it not? I mean, you speak of a criminal conspiracy created to hide a blow job. So, in essence, it is still an issue related to a blow job. And, the only reason the blow job became public was because of the mad search to find something, anything. He had to be the most investigated person in US history and the result of all this digging was to be impeached for attempting to cover up a blow job. Go hang your head. It's embarrassing. It's insane. It certainly pales in comparison to a conspiracy creating to lie to the US public and the world about WMDs in a foreign country and then follow up that lie with an invasion. Where is your sense of proportion? Where is your humanity? Where is your sense of irony/humor? A "criminal conspiracy" to cover up a blow job????
Posted by: altec | Nov 14, 2004 8:27:03 PM
Brett Bellmore,
I'd prefer to have seen Clinton impeached for strangling Iraq for eight years when they hadn't had any WMD since before he took office. Likewise, I would have preferred to see Nixon impeached for killing hundreds of thousands of Cambodians. I'd also liked to have seen Reagan, Bush I and Bush II impeached, since their manifold crimes prove they weren't fit for office.
But sadly, we live in the world we live in. And in this world, Clinton was impeached over a blow job.
By the way, the example of Clinton is particularly germane to this overall issue. He was essentially an Eisenhower Republican, but this garnered him no civility from America's frothing right wing.
Finally, I notice you didn't find the other items on my list idiotic. I guess that's a step in the right direction.
Posted by: A Tiny | Nov 14, 2004 8:37:53 PM
Brett,
Please don't mention that philanderer Henry Hyde's name. It offends my sensibilities when a member of Congress cheats on their wife, especially when it resulted in the break up of a person's marriage. I don't know if I can ever forget the heartbreak in the still wounded ex-husband's voice when he was interviewed in Florida.
And, if you have any decency at all, please don't be so crude as to bring up Newt Gingrich's name. The moral values people may have forgiven him but us flaming liberals can't recover so quickly from the immoral way he hounded Clinton when he himself was screwing around on his wife with someone half his age, during the time he was mouthing the moralistic charges against Clinton. Thank you.
Posted by: Abigail | Nov 14, 2004 8:51:50 PM
Notary- the first time I ever commented about politics online was after the 2000 election, on Slate. In the first reply to my post about my frustration over the way in which the president was selected, I was told that if Gore had won, he would have been shot.
For years Rush has been calling me, a mother of two, a feminazi. He also has said that you conservatives should keep a few of us liberals alive just so you don't forget what we're like.
Savage calls people like my child "retards."
Ann Coulter wonders if I should have the right to vote.
This has gone on for years and years.
Now, Bob Jones, Frank Pastore and James Dobson, supposedly Christians, call people like me a "Christ-hater" and say I have an "evil ideology" and that I hate "God's people..." because I am a liberal who believes Christian values are expressed differently than they do.
How much farther do they have to go in this sort of scapegoating and witch hunting and eliminationist rhetoric before conservatives like you are disgusted? Where is the decency of conservatives to tell these people to stop?
I have never hated a president until this one. But, yes, I do hate Bush because he has made me ashamed of my own country.
He has dragged the name of this nation in the gutter with his justifications for torture and has made this nation something that I would have thought possible: a pariah among the majority of the world's population.
He has taken the words for concepts we hold dear and perverted them to mean the slaughter of women and children.
The current Republicans in power declared "culture war" on people like me decades ago. I've finally had it and I despise anything connected with Republicans, even though I have voted for moderate Republicans in the past.
%0
Posted by: disenchanted | Nov 14, 2004 9:02:14 PM
Notary- the first time I ever commented about politics online was after the 2000 election, on Slate. In the first reply to my post about my frustration over the way in which the president was selected, I was told that if Gore had won, he would have been shot.
For years Rush has been calling me, a mother of two, a feminazi. He also has said that you conservatives should keep a few of us liberals alive just so you don't forget what we're like.
Savage calls people like my child "retards."
Ann Coulter wonders if I should have the right to vote.
This has gone on for years and years.
Now, Bob Jones, Frank Pastore and James Dobson, supposedly Christians, call people like me a "Christ-hater" and say I have an "evil ideology" and that I hate "God's people..." because I am a liberal who believes Christian values are expressed differently than they do.
How much farther do they have to go in this sort of scapegoating and witch hunting and eliminationist rhetoric before conservatives like you are disgusted? Where is the decency of conservatives to tell these people to stop?
I have never hated a president until this one. But, yes, I do hate Bush because he has made me ashamed of my own country.
He has dragged the name of this nation in the gutter with his justifications for torture and has made this nation something that I would have thought possible: a pariah among the majority of the world's population.
He has taken the words for concepts we hold dear and perverted them to mean the slaughter of women and children.
The current Republicans in power declared "culture war" on people like me decades ago. I've finally had it and I despise anything connected with Republicans, even though I have voted for moderate Republicans in the past.
Posted by: disenchanted | Nov 14, 2004 9:03:18 PM
The Reid demonization isn't going to be about anything "shady" in his Vegas past.
The meme they are pushing (at least here in NV, where I've heard this from enough well connected GOopers to think its the party line) is that Reid has a "great opportunity to change the tone." If and when the Democratic minority blocks a "reform", it'll be a "sad disappointment" that even a great guy like Harry Reid can't stand up to the "special interests".
The thing that gives me hope is that Reid has nothing to lose. My guess is that he won't run again in 6 years either way and if he does, I don't think he'll have difficulty raising the money necessary to fend off another bid; plus the demographics of NV in 6 years should favor Dems a lot more than they do now.
And everyone I know would be stunned if he has "national ambitions," ie is thinking of running for President.
Posted by: desmoulins | Nov 14, 2004 9:17:10 PM
Demonize them all and let God sort it out
Posted by: epistemology | Nov 14, 2004 10:42:17 PM
Davon:
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Posted by: epistemology | Nov 14, 2004 10:43:24 PM
Notary:
Go back to bob mcmanus' first post; there is a smiley emoticon. He was clearly joking when he said screw you.
Posted by: epistemology | Nov 14, 2004 10:47:43 PM
And everyone I know would be stunned if he has "national ambitions," ie is thinking of running for President.
Reid's a pro-life Mormon. He wouldn't get the Democratic nomination if he were the second coming of FDR.
A Reid-vs.-Pataki presidential matchup would be a fun little polisci experiment, however.
Posted by: JP | Nov 14, 2004 11:17:55 PM
If Jeb Bush wins the DEMOCRATIC nomination...?!!!
Posted by: Boots | Nov 14, 2004 11:27:01 PM
I think the term is "appeasement."
Posted by: duus | Nov 15, 2004 1:06:51 AM
Why do I never hear about the now very relevant anthrax attacks on Leahy and Daschle? I can't be the only one who thinks it more than just a coincidence that these two sustained so much attack aggression by the GOP's this election cycle and there is not a conspiracy? As far as Harry Reid goes, I'm suspicious of Reid simply for the fact that many gloating Republicans "suggested" repeatedly to democrats that they should appoint him the chair immediately after the election. So this alone makes it suspect considering their track record.
My take on strategy is somehow force the media hand and become vicious. Very vicious. Like so many of you stated, if they can tear down heroes like Daschle and Clelland, they can and will tear apart anyone. Look what they did to McCain and witness how he's just a nazi blow up doll now.
Posted by: elrey | Nov 15, 2004 5:15:45 AM
epistomology - Thanks for pointing out the "emoticon" to me. I'm brand new to this web discussion kind of thing and I was unaware of emoticons. I looked it up on Google just now, and I see that you are correct.
I still don't know what message is supposed to be conveyed by "screw you", with a smile attached.
I am not a young man, and I am often uncomfortable with the verbal style that seems to be prevalent among younger people these days. It often seems discourteous to me.
All I know to do is to tell myself, "Deal with it and move on." But I continue to recommend civility.
Posted by: Notary | Nov 15, 2004 10:49:37 AM
David Sucher - Am I serious? Entirely so.
Foolish, perhaps, but entirely serious.
This is the 15th Presidential election in which I have participated and -- while there have always been isolated nutjobs and lunatic fringes -- it seems to me that the "vitriol" and incivility is much more widespread this time than it was the other 14 times. I do not believe that this bodes well for the future, and I continue to recommend reciprocal courtesy.
Posted by: Notary | Nov 15, 2004 11:06:59 AM
"The question is what are you going to do about it?"
I have an idea: Refer to my home as 'Jesusland.' Refer to yourself as in a 'reality-based community', implying that I am not. Compare me to the Taliban. Compare the president I voted for to a Chimp, to Hitler, and so on. Say that my views are driving this country back into the stoneage.
Then, ask me to vote for you in four years!
Its a revolution, baby. The Democratic Party is disintegrating-I love living through History!
Steve
Posted by: Steve | Nov 15, 2004 11:45:05 AM
Refer to yourself as in a 'reality-based community', implying that I am not.
Hey Steve, you may want to read the Ron Suskind article in which a Bush adminstration official says just that.
Helps to get your story right, even as you gloat over the demise of our country.
Posted by: R. Porrofatto | Nov 15, 2004 12:47:12 PM
Even better!
Tell me that my views are bringing about the demise of our country, then hope I'll vote for you in four years! Brilliant! you must work in marketing!
Steve
Posted by: Steve | Nov 15, 2004 1:27:48 PM
Steve,
If shaming most of the populace into not considering themselves "liberal" worked for the Republicans, then turnabout ought to be fair play.
You seem like a reasonable chap, after all. Why would you want to throw your lot in with the Religious Right, who wants to take away even your right to use birth control?
Posted by: Noel | Nov 15, 2004 6:39:08 PM
"You seem like a reasonable chap, after all. Why would you want to throw your lot in with the Religious Right, who wants to take away even your right to use birth control?"
Utterly preposterous.
But I do agree with you. I actually like seeing young hippies in California with 'fuck the heartland' signs. I like it when Babs, and Bruce Springstein, and Jon Stewart announce how ignorant the midwest and south are. I'm actually being a bit disengenouous with Porrofatto up there-I think you guys should keep up the smug insults. I figure its worth probably 2% in a national election-not enough to overcome media bias, but it helps.
Steve
Posted by: Steve | Nov 15, 2004 8:22:21 PM
"Utterly preposterous", eh?
Bzzzt! Thank you for playing.
(And yes, at this point I know I'm feeding a troll, but I do think it's important to point out that the Religious Right *is* looking to take away birth control)
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