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Who Hates The West?
Oh John, why do you waste your time thusly? But while we're on the subject, the extent to which Reynoldsism -- the doctrine that "the left" (whatever it is) has been captured by an irrational and pathological hatred for western values -- is a dishonest, absurd, and manipulative piece of propaganda is the least of its problems.
The thing here is that when you tease out the argument Glenn's trying to make, the consequences are completely absurd. The anti-west faction of the west turns out to include the majority of the citizens of Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Ireland, The United Kingdom, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Germany, Austria, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic. The citizens, in other words, of every countries normally understood to be inhabited by western persons except for the United States and Israel. Nor have nations which have adopted western norms of human rights and governance (Turkey, Japan, South Korea, India, Taiwan, etc.) seen their populations embrace the pro-west point of view. Indeed, outside of the Old Confederacy a majority of Americans are in the anti-west faction. The territories of Latin America, strongly influenced as they are by western culture, have turned against the west, have uniformly turned against the west.
Now if this is right, it constitutes a very serious problem indeed. A problem whose scale goes so far beyond anything insurgents may or may not due in Iraq that obsessing over the details of Ted Kennedy's views seems irrelevant. The enemy is everywhere, apparently, and western man is doomed. The "transnational progressives" of warblogger fame have already won the battle. The only question is whether the TP faction will beat the Islamists or whether the Islamists will beat us. Or, perhaps, the ChiComs will inherit the earth after we've wiped each other out. The pro-western point of view has simply become a terribly small minority within its zone of cultural influence and has no hope of prevailing. Even the Pope isn't really anti-war -- he's on the other side.
How could something like this have even happened? Most Americans have never even taken a humanities course at an elite university. But some of us have. Add to that the New York Times readers and the insidious influence of the BBC World News on continental opinion and maybe you can see.
But of course nothing of the sort has happened. Let me pose for Glenn a contrary view of events that one often hears offered up by Europeans. On this view, it's the United States and Israel who've abandonned western values and gone -- loaded up with half-assed geopolitical notions and inspired by obscurantist religious doctines -- charging off on a bizarre and incomprehensible imperial campaign. I don't think this view is quite right, but I think it has a number of things going for it. For one thing, it identifies western values with the values affirmed by the overwhelming majority of westerners. Second, it locates the demographic center of rejection of the west among populations -- American southern whites and Israeli sephardic Jews -- that are legitimately marginal to the main tradition of western culture. Opposition to current American national security policy is, in this view, embodied in institutions -- from the United Nations to the Westphalian state system to the Catholic Church to the human rights establishment -- created by westerners and rooted in the historical processes operating at the core of the western world.
As I say, I think this view is overstated. But it at least is more-or-less in contact with reality, even if lacking in some nuanced understanding of how and why policy is shaped in Washington, DC and the extent to which domestic factors continue to predominate in American politics even during times of global crisis. The other view, however, is little more than a paranoid delusion, the near-precise inverse of the overheated view that Bushism is the leading edge of American fascism.
February 4, 2005 | Permalink
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Comments
Strawman: a made-up version of an opponent’s argument that can easily be defeated. To accuse people of attacking a straw man is to suggest that they are avoiding worthier opponents and more valid criticisms of their own position.
Posted by: Paul | Feb 4, 2005 2:46:10 PM
Give 'em hell Matt. ("I told the truth and they called it Hell"--Harry Truman)
Got into an arguement yesterday with local idiot who came to the bookstore objecting to my letter to the editor of the local rag calling Bush on the real scandals (no WMDS, phony economic claims, torture, no-bid contracts, his real history: not Texas cowboy, but old New England son of president and grandson of senator, failed businessman). He told me I shouldn't criticise the Pres in time of War. I told him I owed the current president the same loyalty, suspicion and respect as he gave the previous President in his letters to editor... He left, fuming.
Now we have the spectacle of Ward Churchill becoming the poster child for liberal 'hate speech'. As overwrought as his essay (Talkleft links to it) is, he makes a point that the Right in America cannot abide: the US Government and Global Corpations have made decisions that have hurt and killed millions. 9/11 was awful, but if we cannot try to understand the motivations of its actors, we are screwed. It's not hating America to criticise it.
If , as W says, "They hate our freedom," well, yes, the hate the freedom with which we've played with their lives for power and profit.
Posted by: Mr. Bill | Feb 4, 2005 2:56:17 PM
Mr. Yglesias,
As I see it, it is an update of Spengler.
I have a certain agreement with Spengler. The fact that so many are so lacking in will, so reluctant to do battle against genuine enemies, even to passively accept their own destruction (through demographic collapse, apparently, but in so many other ways as well) seems to me to reinforce Spenglers point.
The US and Israel may be the last redoubts of the "West", the remainder is asking to be overwhelmed.
Posted by: luisalegria | Feb 4, 2005 3:00:09 PM
He was the Ghostbuster with glasses, right?
Posted by: norbizness | Feb 4, 2005 3:03:26 PM
Mr. Norbizness,
Oswald Spengler, "The Decline of the West"
Its worth reading.
Posted by: luisalegria | Feb 4, 2005 3:05:01 PM
The right likes to think they can imperialistically claim the entirety of Western Civilization for themselves. The history of this meme goes at least back to Allan Bloom, but probably beyond. It's implied then that if you criticize anything on the right, you're criticizing The West, too -- the assumptions behind this are just so ludicrous that you have to dismiss the entire argument.
Posted by: ScrewyRabbit | Feb 4, 2005 3:06:30 PM
Is it time to break out the Hofstader again?
Posted by: praktike | Feb 4, 2005 3:11:38 PM
Where'd all this straw come from?
Posted by: Al | Feb 4, 2005 3:12:27 PM
Mr. Screwyrabbit,
If you phrase it that way, of course you are correct, the "right" would be overreaching. And no doubt there are plenty of people who would use such rhetoric.
But Bloom was no rightist, and there are plenty of people in the third world (and within the "west") who criticize the "west" wholesale for their own nefarious reasons, with whom neither the western right or left should have any sympathy.
And here is the problem - too many on the left find common cause with these barbarians for the sake of rhetorical attacks on the right.
I have witnessed this my whole life, and you can see it to this day - that fool Zapatero is playing ball with Castro and Chavez just to tweak the Americans.
Posted by: luisalegria | Feb 4, 2005 3:15:19 PM
Well, when the core of an argument is a word that has no concrete meaning: "the West," you know you're in for sophistry. What, pray-tell, is the West? Ask 10 people, get 10 different answers. What does Western Civilisation mean? It's nowhere near as clear as one thinks. Americans, in particular, have a very mongrel pedigree in this childish East-West divide.
So, of course, what the sophist Reynolds does is pick a meaning of West that is non-standard and beneficial to him: the West means conservative/Republican American thinking, and anyone that agrees with them. That's all. It's so stupid it almost doesn't deserve comment. It's like the person that is convinced a cabal of Jews is running the world, keeping the white man down. So, too, is the conservative that convinces himself the "Left" is against everything "the West" stands for. Both are out of touch with reality. Both are paranoid delusions. Or propaganda meant to fire up the base.
Posted by: Timothy Klein | Feb 4, 2005 3:15:34 PM
I will be shocked if one of the trackbacks to this post isn't someone saying, "The Left thinks that American southern whites and Israeli sephardic Jews are legitimately marginal. This is their true face." The trackback may add something in about how Matt is usually portrayed as a fairly moderate, reasonable liberal, so if he thinks that, the real Left is if anything more extreme. The trackback post will be linked to by Glenn Reynolds, who will, when questioned, say that he wasn't agreeing with it.
Mr. Bill, I think you're too kind to Churchill. He doesn't say we should try to understand the 9/11 attackers motivations, he says they were fully justified and showed impressive restraint in not doing more violence.
Posted by: washerdreyer | Feb 4, 2005 3:16:40 PM
so reluctant to do battle against genuine enemies
Uh, yeah.
Like Saddam?
You ever sit around and wonder, just for like a second or two, if maybe the rest of the world isn't lacking in will, it's that you are a crazy, paranoid, freak with a lot of company? Like after Saddam's Cabinet of Horrors was empty?
Posted by: absynthe | Feb 4, 2005 3:18:52 PM
Mr. Klein,
What Reynolds means I don't know for certain. But what Alan Bloom or Oswald Spengler meant is clear enough.
And against that definition the left has a long tradition of offense. If that idea is paranoid, then it it paranoia with solid roots.
Posted by: luisalegria | Feb 4, 2005 3:19:26 PM
Matt, on your most recent TAPPED post, I'd say that Howard Dean has added far fewer Democratic 'enemies' to his list than Dems who have added Dean to their own enemy list. Let's keep in mind that tt takes two to make amends, as well as tango. Dean may not have been the ideal DNC chair, but it may also be that state Dems want to make sure that beltway Dems are hearing them loudly and clearly about the need for changes in how the party is run.
Posted by: David W. | Feb 4, 2005 3:22:05 PM
Mr. Absynthe,
Saddam Hussein was small potatoes.
More serious matters include selling advanced arms and technology for producing them to the Chinese imperialists, failing to properly support Taiwan, permitting the spread of Wahhabi ideology, taking a soft line on nuclear proliferation, and in general permitting the existence of totalitarian states in a world where they can so easily aquire annihilating weapons.
And of course both the US and Israel have been guilty of all of this too.
Posted by: luisalegria | Feb 4, 2005 3:25:17 PM
MY:
Sounds like the germ of a good book project to me. After all Peter Beinart is getting $600,000 for his much less interesting musings...
Posted by: Otto | Feb 4, 2005 3:31:13 PM
...fool Zapatero is playing ball with Castro and Chavez just to tweak the Americans.
Luis, what makes you think that Zapatero, Castro and Chavez represent hte West in any lesser degree than you, President George W Bush and, say, Generalisimo Francisco Franco?
Posted by: abb1 | Feb 4, 2005 3:31:24 PM
But Bloom was no rightist, and there are plenty of people in the third world (and within the "west") who criticize the "west" wholesale for their own nefarious reasons, with whom neither the western right or left should have any sympathy.
Who are you talking about? I don't know anyone, on the left or otherwise, who says they have sympathy for the likes of Castro. And even though I don't like Castro, I may find that I agree with some point or other he might make about western domination. Does that make me an apologist for Castro? Hardly. Am I anti-Western? No, there are plenty of things I love about our political and cultural tradition.
BTW, I didn't mean to imply that Bloom is a rightist. I don't know what his personal beliefs are, but I know the right LOVED his book and Newt Gingriches of the world used it to argue against any left-wing criticism post_1966.
Posted by: ScrewyRabbit | Feb 4, 2005 3:31:37 PM
I'm afraid I don't get it. I coulnd't figure out if you are pro or anti-Europe or anything. The link you provided was even more cryptic. Maybe I'm just dumb
I have a feeling that you may be preaching to the choir here and assuming as you wander across the literary world that we've all been right there with you. Maybe your regular readers have, in which case, bon chance!
Posted by: Ryan | Feb 4, 2005 3:34:51 PM
Or even non-totalitarian states like Venezuela apparently!
So basically the world is going to be dangerous until it's led by all pro-US states. The U.S. is always that right that it isn't that the U.S. and Israel should maybe wonder why 90% of the globe doesn't agree with them. Somehow, the whole world needs to agree with you and elect (presumbably elect) people that agree with you, but the world is dangerous, not you?
Posted by: absynthe | Feb 4, 2005 3:35:55 PM
both the US and Israel have been guilty of all of this too.
How is it then "an offense of the left" rather than "an offense of the western world"? Am I understanding you correctly as insinuating that the left is guilty of these offenses?
Posted by: Jeremy Osner | Feb 4, 2005 3:36:51 PM
Not only that but if you actually meant "the left" you aren't going to find many takers for sending weaponry to Israel, which is going to sell it to China anyway.
Posted by: absynthe | Feb 4, 2005 3:38:25 PM
I had an advisor who, every time the name of any graduate student who was taking too long to finish his dissertation came up, would mutter, "(s)he's like those people who write dissertations on Spengler."
Posted by: david | Feb 4, 2005 3:38:52 PM
Well, you will find plenty of elected democrats but the percentage of "the left" which wants to ship weapons to Israel would be very much in the minority.
Posted by: absynthe | Feb 4, 2005 3:40:05 PM
Praktike - yes, it is time to break out the Hofstadter again (or at least, I was thinking exactly the same thing the other day when scrolling down through some of the oddnesses in comments to Armed Liberal's post - if we want examples of the paranoid style in American politics, we have plenty of them).
Posted by: Henry | Feb 4, 2005 3:40:15 PM
luisalegria-
By describing the Chinese as "imperialists" are you referring to anything other than their (illegitimate) desire to conquer Taiwan? Is that enough to make them imperialists? There are many things wrong with the Chinese government, I'm somewhat confused that you think imperialism is the most notable one.
Posted by: washerdreyer | Feb 4, 2005 3:43:21 PM
Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Ireland, The United Kingdom, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Germany, Austria, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic.
You forgot Liechtenstein!
Posted by: SoCalJustice | Feb 4, 2005 3:48:55 PM
washerdryer,
Wouldn't you aslo include Tibet in any discussion related to Chinese imperialism?
Posted by: SoCalJustice | Feb 4, 2005 3:52:36 PM
Yeah, that hurts my point.
Posted by: washerdreyer | Feb 4, 2005 3:54:26 PM
Mr. Screwyrabbit,
Castro is beloved of a large slice of the European and third-world left. From what I have seen he would on any given day be given a rapturous welcome in many places where they gather, such as Puerto Alegre.
That you personally don't know such people is perhaps a testament to your good taste or good fortune, but not an indication of his influence.
Alan Bloom passed away a good many years ago. His fight in part was with the 1960's "new left" who denied the value of the bulk of the "Western Canon" of literature and religion and philosophy and demanded its replacement with unadulterated Marxism (and its offshoots) and its destruction as an act of expiation of western guilt. His 1960's guilt-freak enemies are still around in large numbers. Some have become influential in generating a more powerful "anti-western" attitude in the third world.
Its no wonder the "right" was enthusiastic about him, given that they shared the same enemies. From what I can see, the "left" should have a similar good taste in enemies.
Posted by: luisalegria | Feb 4, 2005 3:56:19 PM
Ahh, transnational progressives...that takes me back to a simpler time on this site when Matt would provide the shorter Den Beste--now that was blogging. What ever happened to SDB? Does he still haunt some blogs comments?
Posted by: cynical joe | Feb 4, 2005 3:56:27 PM
Wouldn't you aslo include Tibet in any discussion related to Chinese imperialism?
Makes more sense than Taiwan. For Americans to bitch about Taiwan while we hold Hawaii is just gross.
Posted by: absynthe | Feb 4, 2005 3:57:11 PM
I don't know anyone, on the left or otherwise, who says they have sympathy for the likes of Castro.
Actually, you're wrong here. Castro is a revolutionary hero, probably second to only Che, he is quite popular. See this for example: Belafonte and Glover Come to Castro's Defense Against Bush. He is certainly much more popular in 'the West' than Mr. Bush.
Posted by: abb1 | Feb 4, 2005 3:59:33 PM
Mr. Absynthe,
The non-totalitarianism of Venezuela may not last much longer. I understand that Chavez is taking steps to control the press. Since it is a centralized oil-state, he already controls the engine of the economy. He is assisting Marxist rebels in his neighboring country of Columbia. There were reports a few days ago that he was going to give the Cuban security services the right to arrest Cuban emigres in Venezuela.
There is safety in hegemony of course - war is the result of national ambition, and if national ambition is rendered impractical by an overwhelming power before it starts there will be no war. That was the mechanism of the Pax Romana.
Some similar thing is happening today. There is unprecedented peace because there is no hope of victory for an overt aggressor, due to overwhelming American power. There is even only very limited scope for international subversion.
Posted by: luisalegria | Feb 4, 2005 4:06:08 PM
For Americans to bitch about Taiwan while we hold Hawaii is just gross.
All political considerations and historical differences aside, Hawaii has much better waves than Taiwan.
Posted by: SoCalJustice | Feb 4, 2005 4:07:17 PM
Mr. Washerdreyer,
I refer to the current Chinese government as imperialists because that is indeed their desire. As I understand the matter they openly wish to occupy or dominate Korea, Eastern Siberia, Mongolia, Taiwan of course, and hold the predominant influence over all their immediate neighbors. The prevailing opinion in East Asia with respect to China as I see it (I am Filipino) is dread.
Posted by: luisalegria | Feb 4, 2005 4:10:20 PM
"Praktike - yes, it is time to break out the Hofstadter again (or at least, I was thinking exactly the same thing the other day when scrolling down through some of the oddnesses in comments to Armed Liberal's post - if we want examples of the paranoid style in American politics, we have plenty of them)."
Yup ... I read that site less and less. Used to comment there pretty frequently, but many of them seem more interested in some nebulous ideological war against perceived internal enemies than in defeating the real bad guys. AL in particular has become pretty sloppy to the point of not being worth reading anymore. Just kind of fling some stuff against the wall and see if it sticks ...
Posted by: praktike | Feb 4, 2005 4:11:26 PM
The non-totalitarianism of Venezuela may not last much longer. I understand that Chavez is taking steps to control the press. Since it is a centralized oil-state, he already controls the engine of the economy. He is assisting Marxist rebels in his neighboring country of Columbia. There were reports a few days ago that he was going to give the Cuban security services the right to arrest Cuban emigres in Venezuela.
Yeah, your reports came to you from the Venezuelan press which has been yammering on since 1998 that he was going to shut down the press. Somehow it never happens.
The same bright bulbs that have been saying that for eight years running now are the same people who told you about Chavez and the FARC.
He just beat the crap out of your little pack of thieves at the ballot box, has always insisted that the only way forward is democratic socialism, but NOW he feels some need to turn the place into a dictatorship?
You believe a bunch of garbage which wouldn't be a bad thing if your gullibility didn't literally kill people around the world.
Posted by: absynthe | Feb 4, 2005 4:12:09 PM
Taiwan is actually a China's break-away province, isn't it? Sorta like the confederate states.
Posted by: abb1 | Feb 4, 2005 4:12:24 PM
"As I understand the matter they openly wish to occupy or dominate Korea, Eastern Siberia, Mongolia, Taiwan of course, and hold the predominant influence over all their immediate neighbors."
Welcome to the real world.
China's becoming a regional player. They're Japan's #1 trading partner now. The U.S. is begging the Chinese to exert their influence over the North Koreans.
What did you expect to happen, Luis?
Posted by: praktike | Feb 4, 2005 4:13:33 PM
Mr. Abb1,
On Castro, precisely. Now see how well that fits into Spengler. The fact that a totalitarian maniac like Castro, who cramps the breadth and sweep of western culture into his ideological iron maiden, is better regarded than Mr. Bush, by comparison an innocuous fellow, or America itself, which contains and prospers with such exuberant variety, tells you all you need to know about the perversion of the "west".
Posted by: luisalegria | Feb 4, 2005 4:15:06 PM
Mr. Praktike,
Its nice to find you again.
What to do about China ? Long term, I have no idea.
Keep and strengthen our local alliances and hope for the best I think. Make sure we don't fall behind on ABM systems and the Navy. Try to keep the Chinese technologically behind in armaments.
Containment, of a sort, may be the only practical way.
Posted by: luisalegria | Feb 4, 2005 4:21:08 PM
"The West" is a nebulous concept but if I had to come up with it's political context, I would say it would be Kant and the enlightenment folk who said that freedom can only be strugled for and can't be given by some benevolant actor.
Bushism has defined itself in the exact opposite direction. If the West is under attack it's not coming from outside.
Posted by: absynthe | Feb 4, 2005 4:22:25 PM
absynthe-
You say, "For Americans to bitch about Taiwan while we hold Hawaii is just gross."
I acknowledge that the original acquisition of Hawaii was unjust. Is that a sufficient condition for granting it independence from the United States? In particular, would independence win a plebiscite? Is such a plebiscite illegitimate because the current population includes people who have no legitimate right to vote? I'm legitimately curious about why I should think that Hawaii's statehood is an injustice, since it has never seriously occured to me that it is.
I found this site on the topic: http://www.hawaii-nation.org/
but it doesn't seem that helpful.
Posted by: washerdreyer | Feb 4, 2005 4:26:15 PM
Well, Luis, I like Castro much more than I do Bush. Mr. Castro most certainly is a hero. Cuba currently is a peaceful country, provinding a lot humanitarian aid all over the world - vaccinations and so on.
I think Mr. Bush and his clique are totalitarian maniacs who cramps the breadth and so on. And at least 160 western artists and intellectuals agree with me.
So, why do you think your POV is better than mine? I am a western guy. I am an IT professional with master's degree in applied math. You can't be any more western than that, can you?
Posted by: abb1 | Feb 4, 2005 4:26:18 PM
Mr. Absynthe,
And people have been entirely wrong for eight years ? I don't think so.
And his opposition isn't my pack of thieves nor is it yours. It is his opposition. They exist independently of you or me.
We shall see what we shall see. A FARC-leader was recently kidnapped out of Venezuela, who was residing openly in the country apparently with official assistance. That is an unfriendly act.
Posted by: luisalegria | Feb 4, 2005 4:26:51 PM
I'm legitimately curious about why I should think that Hawaii's statehood is an injustice, since it has never seriously occured to me that it is.
You've not talked to many Hawaiian's. Secession is a serious topic there.
It would be interesting to see if they had a referendum and declared statehood how many countries would recognize the Republic of Hawaii.
Posted by: absynthe | Feb 4, 2005 4:32:46 PM
Mr. Abb1,
Your opinions are, as usual, interesting.
To take a Kantian approach to things, consider - would you rather universal Castroism, where you have a single ideological/cultural/philosophical/economic line permitted in speech, research and thought, (and universal poverty),
or universal Bushism, which I take as the current condition of the US, where the government itself, never mind all sorts of private parties, promotes every form and variety of opinion or line of thought, but where you have to tolerate the opinions of people you despise, and losing on very marginal policy differences, sometimes ? And which yields, by the way, the highest standard of living for the greatest number of people ever in history ?
Now you are you and I am I, but I think your guage of values needs adjusting.
Posted by: luisalegria | Feb 4, 2005 4:36:07 PM
And people have been entirely wrong for eight years ? I don't think so.
It's been really, really, close and these stories pop up like clockwork every time Chavez says something negative about Bush.
He made a statement earlier this week saying he was sick of subsidizing our gas and instantly there are all these new stories.
The guy you are talking about is Rodrigo Granda (better known as Ricardo González), the scandal there is that DISIP threw him in the truck of a car and shiped him over to a country whose human rights record makes Cuba look like Canada. Chavez has been central to brokering peace talks (I know you don't like them on general principle but maybe other people have other ideas) and there is absolutely no point in making peace with your friend you make peace with your enemy.
Posted by: absynthe | Feb 4, 2005 4:40:47 PM
Actually, you're wrong here. Castro is a revolutionary hero, probably second to only Che, he is quite popular. See this for example: Belafonte and Glover Come to Castro's Defense Against Bush. He is certainly much more popular in 'the West' than Mr. Bush.
The article you quote begins thus:
"President George W. Bush poses a graver danger to the world than Fidel Castro does to the world or the people he oppresses, 160 “artists and intellectuals” argued in a two paragraph statement released last week, mere weeks after Castro carried out executions and imprisoned dozens for daring to speak against his dictatorship."
That isn't an endorsement of Castro, it's an assessment of who is more dangerous to the world. And I would have to agree with Glover and all of the foreign signatories, for the simple reason that Castro has very little geopolitical power -- and hence not much ability to abuse it -- while GWB has a great deal. Not to mention the fact that GWB is brash and stupid.
Does this make me a Castro apologist? No.
Posted by: ScrewyRabbit | Feb 4, 2005 4:45:52 PM
Well, he's probably right that Castro is more popular than Bush at this point, but that isn't saying much.
Posted by: absynthe | Feb 4, 2005 4:47:55 PM
Mr. Alegria,
Universal Bushism is also firmly against kitten and puppy torture.
Posted by: Thomas | Feb 4, 2005 4:56:11 PM
Luis,
I would hate to see 'universal Bushism'. It sounds like a crossbreed of permanent crusade with crony capitalism. Can't imagine anything more appalling, even though it's sure all western stuff. Kinda archaic tho.
As far as the 'universal Castroism' goes, I have no idea what it is, because the Cuban government has been functioning under permanent state of emergency caused by constant harassment (including direct terrorist attacks) for the last 40-some years, as Mr. Glover and others explain. The Cuban government has managed very well so far and, in fact, represent a role model for many third world peoples. I sure would like to see how it would work under normal conditions. Perhaps it'll be so nice that even you love it - who knows?
Posted by: abb1 | Feb 4, 2005 5:07:59 PM
I do believe that luisalegria, with no hint of irony (and no sense of history) just wrote that "Bushism" is a situation where
"the government itself, never mind all sorts of private parties, promotes every form and variety of opinion or line of thought, but where you have to tolerate the opinions of people you despise, and losing on very marginal policy differences, sometimes?"
Puh-lease! That's not Bushism, that's pluralistic western-style democracy at work. To give it the name "Bushism" perfectly captures the point being argued here: that the right is monotonously insistent in asserting its monopoly over democratic ideals.
Cheers!
Everett
Posted by: Everett Volk | Feb 4, 2005 5:14:54 PM
Mr. Volk,
I was arguing extreme cases to illustrate the perversity of thought among some people.
And, in this case, why not ? Are the ideals of Mr. Bush not those of "pluralistic western democracy" ? I believe they are, in fact. I don't think they vary in any significant way from those of his opponent in the last election, or even those of Mr. Dean for that matter. Their differences lie primarily with policy, not ideology.
Compared to, say, the ideals underlying Castro or the Iranian Mullahship, there isn't a micrometer of difference between the ideals of Mr. Bush or Mr. Blair or Mr. Dean. There is a difference of opinion regarding what to do about the likes of Castro and the Mullahs, or a matter of a couple of percentage points on budget priorities or tax rates.
If some person or country were shopping for ideologies, it would be absurd - no, idiotic - of them to personalize liberal western democracy as that of Mr. Bush and thus prefer the system of Castro.
Posted by: luisalegria | Feb 4, 2005 5:31:44 PM
The idea that you need to "do something" if a government isn't sufficiently accountable through ballots isn't a "Western" idea. It's Wilsonism and it was a total failure.
Posted by: absynthe | Feb 4, 2005 5:35:57 PM
Well, actually exporting democracy at gunpoint to non-whites is just Bush's deal.
Posted by: absynthe | Feb 4, 2005 5:36:56 PM
Mr. Abb1,
That is a wonderful and truly useful line of thought regarding Castro and Cuba. It has every advantage ! It short-circuits every comparison of reality vs reality, and preserves the appeal of the unrealized ideal.
Now, perhaps one could mention the fact that many countries have lived with political instability, guerilla war, even terrorism, and yet have maintained conditions of liberty far beyond those of Cuba - my own country, the Philippines for instance - and many have even prospered.
And that similar politico-economic programs as that of Castro have been a universal failure.
I leave you with your impregnable position.
Posted by: luisalegria | Feb 4, 2005 5:39:18 PM
Mr. Absynthe,
"Wilsonism" is right, more or less. And it has been the most successful political-strategic program in history. It was not implemented, truly, after WWI, because the US was not inclined to follow through, but it was imposed after WWII.
And it worked wherever it was imposed, even among "brown " people.
Posted by: luisalegria | Feb 4, 2005 5:43:38 PM
Would Spengler say a "decline" was reversible? I do believe the West is in decline, and am enjoying the slide down immensely. Decadent societies are just more fun for nihilists and slackers. Ain't gonna reread Spengler. Nope. Can't make me. Hurt. Hurt.
MY, you are right, J Holbo was wasting his time, and I sent a comment saying it, but Crooked Timber ate it. Yours was a much more effective counterpunch, even if you are wrong about Bush and fascism.
Posted by: bob mcmanus | Feb 4, 2005 5:49:42 PM
Well, the non-seceding United States were able to hold an election in the midst of a civil war that killed hundres of thousands. Poor, poor, put upon Fidel just can't seem to get around to allowing real political competitors, and has been known to give the Beria treatment to anyone who attempts to be one. That abb1 prefers Castro to an American President who stands in elections with real competition says all that needs to be known.
Ever notice that communist nations never have dissidents that reach Michael Moore-style obesity?
Posted by: Will Allen | Feb 4, 2005 5:53:37 PM
Mr. Mcmanus,
How far is your tongue in your cheek ? If you are serious I remember you as being more intelligent than that.
Decadence isn't a good idea, nihilists and slackers are in the end useless and despicable people and never a majority.
Posted by: luisalegria | Feb 4, 2005 5:55:12 PM
Nice post. Perhaps it's worth saying "Confederate" every time Reynolds says "Western." Things should clarify. Mind you, it was the Yan
Posted by: John Isbell | Feb 4, 2005 6:09:50 PM
"How far is your tongue in your cheek ?"
Not that far? Would Spengler say a decline was reversible? We won't be founders or participants in the next culture or civilization, if history is a guide. Okay, I suppose the appropriate response is to preserve and maintain as long as possible, with the Stoicism of an Aurelius or something, and attempt to leave artifacts our successors can find useful. But Bush in the Middle East reminds me of that late Emperor who got captured trying to retain Syria.
Best to withdraw to fortified Byzantium, appease the Goths and Huns, and chose our Presidents by lottery. Preserved Hellenism for a thousand years.
Posted by: bob mcmanus | Feb 4, 2005 6:13:38 PM
Mr. Mcmanus,
The Roman empire won and lost Syria (and Iraq) several times, outlasting several sets of enemies, and more than one emperor died in the process.
Are we at the Marcus Aurelius stage ? If so, we have quite a way to go, about three - twelve centuries going by that scale. I think we are, rather, in the Augustan age
Byzantium/Constantinople wouldn't have lasted as long as it did without centuries of war in Italy and Syria and Anatolia and on the Danube and elsewhere. No rest for the decadent - even they needed to send the cataphactoi and bucellari far from home.
And the bits and pieces did carry over you know, they always do.
Posted by: luisalegria | Feb 4, 2005 6:30:59 PM
Well, Luis, all I am saying really is that your 'western' values (and they are western for sure) aren't any better than Mr. Glover's 'western' vlues (they are no less western). You guys sympathize with Franco and Inquisition while people like Glover may sympathize with Castro and Kibbutzim or something. You shouldn't be trying to usurp The West, you are only a part of it - and not the best part, as far as I am concerned.
Posted by: abb1 | Feb 4, 2005 6:32:05 PM
Cynical Joe -- I, too, regret the passing of SSDB, but it was Daniel Davies, not Matthew Yglesias, who wrote that feature.
I think the bizarrest thing is how much fury these champions of The West have at France in particular, and much of Western Europe in general: not just the political decisions of Schroeder and Chiraq (Note: isn't it odd how a right-wing French politician is viewed as the epitome of "The Left" on the right these days? Not that I have a problemm with the vitriole directed at Chiraq, I don't like him either (I don't think anyone does, he's just more popular than Le Pen)). They view the whole of Western Europe as somehow degenerate an emasculated. I sometimes think that the whole right is based on an expression of insecure masculinity. But that probably means I've been reading too much Mouse Words. Anyway, though, where do they think Western Civilization came from? Did it arise indigenously among the Wyandotte, who then spread it to the east and west to the coasts, never quite securing their new civilization there?
Posted by: Julian Elson | Feb 4, 2005 6:36:11 PM
I don't hate the West, but I sure do love the East. Especially sushi.
Posted by: Petey | Feb 4, 2005 6:36:19 PM
I hate the West -- particularly their lack of solid big men and their emphasis on passing and shooting.
Oh, and can we start a pledge drive to have Sullivan keep his promise and stop blogging?
Posted by: Chris Rasmussen | Feb 4, 2005 6:42:15 PM
"I hate the West -- particularly their lack of solid big men..."
Stoudemire? Duncan? Garnett?
Posted by: Petey | Feb 4, 2005 6:49:24 PM
It should be noted that MY's argument here is not a strawman; it's a completely accurate description of Reynolds' argument. According to InstaCohn, Ward Churchill is "the face of the left," and he's made the similar arguments many, many times. I can understand why people refuse to believe that the most popular reactionary blogger repeatedly makes an argument that is so baldly stupid, but that's his position.
Posted by: Scott Lemieux | Feb 4, 2005 6:49:36 PM
Mr. Elson,
Why is the US any less a product of Western Civilization than France ? I don't see your point. Even the Philippines is for the most part an inheritor of Western civilization.
Rome (think America) saw Greece (think much of Europe) as decadent - and "emasculated", I suppose, calling them "graeculi" - greeklings, though it shared classical civilization with it. The Romans had no masculine inferiority complex.
Not quite the same thing vis a vis the US and Europe, but there is a manifest lack of power there, even the will to help themselves in many cases, in spite of their wealth and culture. Or, more profoundly, even to reproduce themselves.
Posted by: luisalegria | Feb 4, 2005 6:55:33 PM
"Are we at the Marcus Aurelius stage ? If so, we have quite a way to go, about three - twelve centuries going by that scale. I think we are, rather, in the Augustan age"
Darn, now I gotta read that dense German again? And decide what kind of music is popular? Maybe I can just get away with the charts.
No wait, got James Blish Cities in Flight right over here.
I guess it matters whether you think America is mere late enlightenment or a new civilization born from the ruins of Europe. I don't think the Europeans want the blame for us. I honestly don't know.
Posted by: bob mcmanus | Feb 4, 2005 6:57:28 PM
Petey, you can enjoy the delicate, Japanese sophistication of your Sushi but I'll stick with my wholesome, down-home Kimbap. You can take sides with the butchers of Nanjing if you want, but I'll take the Korean seaweed-wrapped rice confection any day.
Luis, I never denied that the U.S. was as much a part of the West as Europe. I was merely noting the irony of champions of the West being vitriolically opposed to a large part of Western civilization. It seems that the West is in far more perilous shape than even Matt claims -- not only are most people in the West anti-Western, but even the few enclaves of pro-Westerners are only in favor of about half of it!
In a way, I think that Fidel Castro might be not as bad as Bush for the world, though as a person I think Fidel Castro is worse. This is not because of any good properties Fidel Castro has relative to Bush: it's merely the properties Cuba has relative to the United States. Cuba has waged wars of imperial aggression under Castro, in Angola, Venezuala, and Bolivia, but the fact is that Cuba just COULDN'T fuck things up quite as effectively as the U.S. could. Not that they didn't try, mind you. If cuba had a GDP of $11 trillion and a population of 295 million, Castro would have created small-h holocausts that would have made Iraq look like the invasion of Grenada. But Cuba has only 11 million people and a GDP of $32 billion (and yes, it has better healthcare and education than, say, El Salvador, as Castro apologists love to point out. Well, true, but it had better healthcare and education than El Salvador under Fulgencio Battista too, and its rankings have been slipping since Castro took office). I think that, certainly over the past four years, the U.S. has done more damage to the world than Cuba. Of course, even though Bush has done more damage to the world over the past four years than Castro has over the past four years, Castro has had 46 years to do that damage, so you'd have to integrate the bad stuff the Castro regime has done over past 46 years to the bad stuff the Bush regime has done over the past 4 years. Tough call.
Posted by: Julian Elson | Feb 4, 2005 7:30:54 PM
It should be noted that MY's argument here is not a strawman; it's a completely accurate description of Reynolds' argument.
No. Actually, Matthew's "argument" has nothing at all to do with Reynolds' argument.
Matthew states that "Reynoldism" is "the doctrine that 'the left' (whatever it is) has been captured by an irrational and pathological hatred for western values."
The problem, of course, is that the Reynolds post to which John Holbo links doesn't mention the "west" or "western values" at all. That's right: in his 1,800 word post, Reynolds didn't mention the "west" once.
Undaunted, Matthew has constructed an entire argument about "Who hates the west?" The answer is: that has nothing to do with Reynolds' post.
Accordingly, Matthew's entire post is a strawman: he is knocking down an argument that Reynolds didn't make.
Posted by: Al | Feb 4, 2005 7:38:59 PM
Mr. Elson,
As a matter of fact, I believe that the "champions of the west" were of the opinion that the remainder were hanging back and ignoring their responsibilities.
But on the balance of volume, it has always been the remainder of western civilization who have deplored their champions. As far as I can see the Euro press has long made it their business to trash the United States, whatever it did. It is only lately that Americans have paid attention to them.
Yes, the "west" is in perilous shape. If there were no US hegemony - no US Navy and Air Force deployed around the world as a deterrent - the prevailing "western" attitudes would permit a dangerous power vacuum that would invite every barbarian adventurer to take his chances.
As for the damage that Bush has done - I don't see any. He has just revealed the rotting framework behind many facades.
Posted by: luisalegria | Feb 4, 2005 7:59:32 PM
True enough, Al, but I think Reynolds gets off- base when he starts using the generalization of "the left". It really is a term that is so nebulous as to be useless, just like "the right". Better to be more specific:
"It is unwise for the Democrats to seat the likes of Michael Moore in the Presidential Box during their convention."
or
"It is unwise for a Senator to asscociate with a blogger whose response to American citizens being shot, hung, and burned, was, among other things, "screw them", regardless of whatever the motivations of the blogger are.
Also, a charge of "near traitorous" behavior is serious enough to deserve a full fleshing out, and if one does not have time or is not inclined to do so, merely chracterizing Kennedy's speech as idiotic would likely be more productive, especially since it has been widely demonstrated that the Senator from MA is, in fact, an idiot. The sight of Theodore the Pious explaining how the prospect of bringing someone close to drowning offended him, "as a human being", might be the single most priceless moment in the history of the United States Senate........ I wonder if Jeffrey Dahmer, when incarcerated, use to speak of how much better the food was on the outside.
Posted by: Will Allen | Feb 4, 2005 8:01:12 PM
Luis Alegria: "I have a certain agreement with Spengler. The fact that so many are so lacking in will, so reluctant to do battle against genuine enemies, even to passively accept their own destruction (through demographic collapse, apparently, but in so many other ways as well) seems to me to reinforce Spenglers point."
Luis, Spengler published more than 80 years ago. The West hasn't collapsed yet. The West's biggest problems have been self-caused (WWII and the Cold War -- and yes, Russia is part of the West).
At a certain point both India and China will be threats> Islam isn't an won't be, but we can defeat them so that's who we're attacking.
There has to be a sell-by date on predictions. Everyone agrees that Marx's predictions are kaput. Hayek's 50-60 year old Road to Serfdom prediction has also gone stale: Social Democracy does not lead to slavery. And Spengler's decline of the West is pretty cheesy to.
Of course, the book of Revelations has been predicting the end of tinme for 2000 years, and it's being used as a guide to US foreign policy, so I'm wasting my breath here.
Posted by: John Emerson | Feb 4, 2005 8:12:03 PM
Of course, the book of Revelations has been predicting the end of tinme for 2000 years, and it's being used as a guide to US foreign policy, so I'm wasting my breath here.
John, LOL!
Posted by: ScrewyRabbit | Feb 4, 2005 8:57:41 PM
Ahh yes. The great lovers of the West that support torture and deny trial by jury.
Posted by: Rob | Feb 4, 2005 9:07:10 PM
Al, what's your problem with Western values? Why the defensiveness? Why the unnecessary bolding?
You're not fucking Stalker Al, are you?
NOTE: When I wrote "Fucking Stalker Al", I was using "fucking" as an expletive adjective, and not as part of the verb. But hey -- maybe Stalker Al is a hot babe, maybe Gwyneth Paltrow or Angelina Jolie. Think about that.
Posted by: John Emerson | Feb 4, 2005 9:07:40 PM
Will Allen: I don't necessarily disagree with your point about "treasonous"; that's an accusation that should not be thrown around lightly (even with the modifier "near").
I disagree with you, however, regarding use of the term "Left". I think it is sufficiently defined as to be useful as a general term. Virtually everyone is clear that it includes Michael Moore and Ted Kennedy and Kos and Noam Chomsky and Nancy Pelosi and Jimmy Carter and Atrios (and the like). And the term is useful to make a general statement about all of those people. Yeah, we can disagree about Joe Lieberman or Peter Bienart (and the like). So, it seems to me, that the reader should be free to exclude the latter in any discussion of the "Left" while leaving the writer free to use the shorthand term.
Posted by: Al | Feb 4, 2005 9:32:48 PM
But let me reiterate: the reason that Matthew's post is a total and utter straw man argument is that Reynolds never talks about the "west".
"West" and "left" sound somewhat similar but, really, they are not the same thing.
Posted by: Al | Feb 4, 2005 9:35:21 PM
Again, Al, what's your problem with The West?
I am on the left, but Matt isn't. I've had many bitter disagreements with him, and that's AFTER I modeated my opinions quite a bit.
Pelosi isn't. Carter isn't. There's a pretty big center in this country, a tiny left, and a large, demented right. Almost all Democrats are centrists, and some, like Liberman, are on the right side of center.
If you use a binary division, smearing becomes easy. "We can all agree that David Duke and Al are on the right". Al would try, of course, to claim that Duke is on the Left, but Al is full of shit.
The hard right has much more influence in the Republican Party than the hard left has on the Democratic Party -- most of those guys are Greens, Anarchists, Socialists, and what not. But the neo-Confederate CCC (ex-KKK), the Armageddonist loonies, the strangle the government loonies, and the World War IV hysterics are in the driver's seat of the Republican Party.
If Pat Buchanan had taken the hard right loony vote away from Bush either in 2000 or 2004, the Democrats would have won handily. But Rove kept them on board.
Posted by: John Emerson | Feb 4, 2005 10:00:28 PM
Castro is beloved of a large slice of the European and third-world left.
Please define "large slice" and provide evidence for your claim.
That you personally don't know such people is perhaps a testament to your good taste or good fortune, but not an indication of his influence.
That you personally may is also not an indication.
Posted by: Toadmonster | Feb 4, 2005 10:04:34 PM
luisalegria believes Bush has revealed the rotting framework behind many facades
Luis, I'd object to this kind of language no matter what the context -- the next step is to start with disease imagery, and soon you're on to the kind of eliminationist talk that right-wing radio and Reynolds and company are spreading.
But I object even more strenuously today, when the new Attorney General takes office without having committed to the rule of law. That's a rotting framework for you -- our constitutional system of government. And Bush and his party have created and exploited the rot.
I hereby swear off comments sections for the rest of the evening.
Posted by: Nell Lancaster | Feb 4, 2005 10:07:23 PM
As I remember, Luis lives in one of this country's most left-wing cities, though I'm not sure which any more.
He also is forgetting that a lot of those Castro-lovers are also Democrat-haters. Not important to him, because he's mostly venting and settling scores, but it makes him seem dishonest.
And finally, I suspect (though I can't prove) that he's living in mythic time, where everything is NOW, and that some of his most vivid evidence is 20 or 30 years old.
Altogether, an unreliable witness.
Posted by: John Emerson | Feb 4, 2005 10:12:13 PM
Matt, you self-hating Jew. Kapo dick. Armstrong Williams-esque motherfucker. Why single out Israel? You know what, I fucking hate Glenn Reynolds, I fucking hate GW Bush, but your little simplistic rant against Israel is shit.
Have you ever been there?
Do you know who those people are?
Imperialists? What the fuck are you talking about?
They are not westerners first of all you dumbshit trying to get your cred by criticizing your own. Man, I wish you had fucking burned in Auschwitz, you fucking sellout.
Posted by: Jew | Feb 4, 2005 10:44:25 PM
The idea that Israel, a nation the size of New Jersey occupying a land half the size of NJ can be compared to the US is off the fucking wall.
Imperialist? Go read your history. Sellout. Their leaders ain't sending their kids off to war without ever having fought. Each one of those people sacrifices for their country. Only two of their neighbors even acknowledge they even have a right to fucking exist. To compare that to the US, a global hegemon is so crazy, and so inapt, that the only conclusion I can reach is that you write this to distance yourself from your own people.
Kapo.
Posted by: Jew | Feb 4, 2005 10:48:51 PM
By the way, Israel is not being run by Sephardic Jews. Ashkenazi Jews are the majority of the population. Majority of the cabinet. Never been a Sephardic Prime Minister. Man, you don't even know what you are talking about.
At least, get your facts straight, before you turn us all in to the Nazis, Kapo.
Posted by: Jew | Feb 4, 2005 10:52:02 PM
Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh.
Al, could you say something? There's a bad smell in here.
Posted by: John Emerson | Feb 4, 2005 10:52:08 PM
Mr. Emerson,
I live in San Francisco actually. Yes, it is left-wing, but the majority opinion here is leftist purely pro-forma and cultural. They are as conservative as Marie Antoinette otherwise. As befits a rentier city, their social conscience comes from noblesse oblige more than class solidarity. Gavin Newsom, the great gay marital proponent, is the typical local politician and solidly in the San Francisco mainstream.
So the principal political opposition here is more truly the left we all know so well, the sort that actually do hate Democrats, and they really are a bunch of Castro-lovers. They are also a bunch of incompetent poseurs.
So I am I think well guarded from mistaking leftists and democrats.
I admit that most of my dealings with revolutionary leftists was twenty years ago.
But I have seen real revolutionary leftists in action, the last bit two years ago. They still exist, they still kill people, they still knock up the risk premium in my former country.
They are as similar to San Francisco leftists as leopards in the wild are to neutered tomcats.
Posted by: luisalegria | Feb 4, 2005 11:04:51 PM
Fine, Luis, but isn't this thread about a rightwing smear against the Democrats?
Posted by: John Emerson | Feb 4, 2005 11:17:51 PM
A PBS program on Muslim terrorism in Europe made my heart sink. Everyone who was asked, from judges and police to moderate Muslims to jihadists, agreed that America's invasion of Iraq and our unconditional support of Israel, has made terrorist incidents much more likely. Radical Muslims are bubbling with joy. Great numbers of new recruits have started them thinking big. The Caliphate (when Muslims ruled an empire from Spain to India) might be revived! Thank you, George Bush!
World population: 6.4 billion. Bush voters: 60.6 million. That is roughly .9 percent of the world's population. This small fraction of the world's people should not have so much power for world-wide mischief. If you factor out those bleary-eyed Bush voters who have no idea what Bush is up to (probably a majority), the number of people who approve of his policies is truly tiny. They bear direct responsibility for making the world a more dangerous place.
Posted by: James of DC | Feb 5, 2005 12:03:12 AM
So the principal political opposition here is more truly the left we all know so well, the sort that actually do hate Democrats, and they really are a bunch of Castro-lovers. They are also a bunch of incompetent poseurs.
I lived in SF up until a few months ago. The only California leftists you know exist in your own mind. The fact that you use terms like "Castro-lovers" says everything about how nuanced your understanding is of the political spectrum in SF.
Posted by: ScrewyRabbit | Feb 5, 2005 12:07:59 AM
... I wish you had fucking burned in Auschwitz, you fucking sellout ...
How could you say such a thing? You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
Posted by: synykyl | Feb 5, 2005 12:15:19 AM
Those comments may have been from a Nazi troll, who knows? Pleasant fellow, though.
Posted by: John Emerson | Feb 5, 2005 12:35:04 AM
Oh, I don't think the claim that Castro is the hero of lots of leftists needs any defense. It's just plain true.
At least it's true if "leftists" is correctly understood. Castro isn't the hero of anyone in the Democratic Party, so if your idea of a leftist is Ted Kennedy or Barbara Lee, then you'll have trouble finding many Castro admirers. But that's not my idea of what "leftist" means. When I hear that word I think of people who hang out in places like Berkeley's Revolution Books, read the sayings of Chairman Bob Avakian, organize ANSWER rallies, and think that Noam Chomsky has sold out to the capitalist war machine. Among people like that, you'll find folks who admire Castro. I don't think people like that matter very much, but I wouldn't dream of denying that they exist.
FWIW, my view of Castro is that he's a moderately unpleasant dictator, no better or worse than lots of other dictators out there (some of whom rule countries that the US is on good terms with), and that the US spends far too much time thinking about him.
Posted by: Matt Austern | Feb 5, 2005 12:48:42 AM
I think you are misstating Glenn's argument.
He doesn't ever say that the entire "left" is anti-Western. After all, Glenn is "left" on many issues himself.
But there is in fact a small number of truly anti-Western, anti-democratic, leftists who tend to be rather loud and obnoxious and sometimes drag well-meaning liberals into the gutter with them. One only needs to attend an ANSWER-sponsored protest to see this unless one is in serious denial.
There is just no good reason for liberals to defend or try to cover up the existance of this nutty faction, any more than it pays for the right to try to defend or deny the existance of racist hate groups. Call them out, as Michael Totten has been doing for the last three years. Or Norman Geras.
Posted by: Adam Herman | Feb 5, 2005 3:46:53 AM
FWIW, my view of Castro is that he's a moderately unpleasant dictator, no better or worse than lots of other dictators out there...
Well, this is an extremely silly view, I must say. This is like describing Thomas Jefferson as a typical 18th century slave owner.
How do do you explain, then, that at any and every international gathering Castro goes he is inevitably greeted by standing ovations?
Before being a mild dictator, he is the guy - the only guy - who stood up to unversally hated US imperialism, fought it for 45 years and survived.
Posted by: abb1 | Feb 5, 2005 5:51:08 AM
Well, I've always considered myself as a man of both the Left and the West (yay, Salamis and Marathon), and I thought I was doing my part to avoid demographic collapse by having three kids, but... my wife is Taiwan Aborigine (Austronesian).
Do I only get points for one-and-a-half?
Posted by: MikeN | Feb 5, 2005 5:53:57 AM
"How do do you explain, then, that at any and every international gathering Castro goes he is inevitably greeted by standing ovations?"
Castro is an extremely good dictator. But he's still a dictator.
Posted by: Petey | Feb 5, 2005 6:07:12 AM
Petey, I don't pretend to know what Mr. Castro would've done if the US treated Cuba the way it treats China or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan.
But there is one thing I do know: had the US been under permanent vicious attack by an overwhelmingly powerful superstate that is known to invade, finance and organize coup d'états and political assassination around the world - there would've been a permanent dictatorial state of emergency in the US as well.
Posted by: abb1 | Feb 5, 2005 6:29:10 AM
Luis:
In the above posts you have:
(1) misused Kant - universalization is a test of self-contradiction applied to maxims, not one of the consequences of following an ideology to its limit;
(2) shown way too much interest in a somewhat insane German romantic (Spengler) who got taken down nicely by Weber during his own lifetime;
(3) gotten China's revisionist claims on Taiwan, which are very much real, confused with its potential but not-being-pursued claims on other areas, including the Soviet Far East
Why should we listen to you, exactly?
I highly recommend The Myth of Continents: A Critique of Meta-Geography and The Opening of the American Mind as antidotes to the kind of thinking Matt's worried about.
Posted by: Lee Scoresby | Feb 5, 2005 9:48:44 AM
"But there is in fact a small number of truly anti-Western, anti-democratic, leftists who tend to be rather loud and obnoxious and sometimes drag well-meaning liberals into the gutter with them. "
Instapundit was being deliberately misleading in trying to smear the Democratic Party with these people -- people who all hate the Democratic Party. That's the main point here -- some of us want to correct the record, and some of us want to echo the smear.
On a binary up-and-down single-issue vote, politics does make strange bedfellows. That's where the ANSWER problem came from.
Compare:the Republicans agree with the American Nazi Party on affirmative action. But they've also been very successful in keeping the racists within the party -- in 2000 the right-wing parties got .7% of the vote, and you know that there are more rightwing loonies than that. (Nader got 2.7%. Switch the numbers and Gore wins solidly).
The neo-Confederates, Armageddonists, WW-IV hawks, and anti-tax anarchists are members in good standing of the Republican Party, and they comprise a significant proportion of its support. I doubt seriously that Churchill is even a Democrat at all.
What Instapundit, and Robert Conquest, and Armed Liberal, and John Hinderaker, and Andrew Sullivan make these kinds of accusations, they are disgracing themselves and launching a classically deceptive smear campaign. The way to combat this is NOT to say "Well, you know, they do have a point"
They do not have a point. What they do have is an advantage (since Dubya's reelection), and while they have that advantage they are using lies to try to destroy their political opposition entirely (which Norquist has stated as a goal).
The liberal tendency to discuss everything reasonably, and say "yes, but" and "the truth is somewhere in between", etc., etc., does not work when you're confronted with an ideological goon squad. I'm not sure that the Democrats of today will ever be able to learn that lesson. It's a different ball game than it used to be, and people aren't getting the word.
Posted by: John Emerson | Feb 5, 2005 11:13:07 AM
>Askenazim are a majority in Israel.
No. Jews from Africa and Asia are.
Posted by: ron | Feb 5, 2005 11:52:56 AM
Ron, you are wrong. Russian immigration in the '90's destroyed the very small majority that Sephardim/Mizrahim had. Look it up.
Bite me.
And that goes for you too Kapo-Matt.
Posted by: Jew | Feb 5, 2005 1:55:24 PM
Mr. Scoresby,
You certainly don't have to listen to me, God knows, this forum isn't exactly one where we conservatives are going to get a friendly hearing. Though it is nice that you listen your objections plainly.
As for your points -
1. I was using universalization as a test of a maxim - that Castroism is a better model of society than what Mr. Bush advocates. I.e., instead of tolerating one or the other in some foreign country that one doesn't really care about, whether such would be tolerable as the universal human condition. It isn't exactly a neat maxim, but it does not require that either Castroism or modern capitalist democracy be taken to their ideological limits - whatever those limits are, or whatever one imagines them to be. I would say there is no applicable ideological extremity to capitalist democracy - the very purpose is to prevent the tyranny of extremes.
2. Philosophers (and sociologists) are not people you can refute. Spengler was much more the first than the second anyway. None of these people is dealing with testable hypotheses. Read them all, I say, and keep an open mind. If your taste inclines you one way or the other, keep some humility about this, because your tastes are not necessarily going to guide you well. As for oddity, when was that ever a disqualification ?
3. China is scaring everyone with its various claims. They have started publishing Chinese historical claims to large parts of Korea, Siberia and Mongolia. And then there is the Japanese island dispute, which the Chinese have revived. Japan is in the middle of a military expansion, worried in the near term about North Korea, but in a more substantial way about China.
Mongolia is eager to achieve a military alliance with the US. The armored divisions and missile batteries aren't necessarily massed on the borders, but I don't think any East Asian government is confident about the future.
I will look into your books, particularly the second.
Posted by: luisalegria | Feb 5, 2005 3:30:55 PM
Mr. MikeN,
As far as your demographic efforts are concerned, bravo. It would count for more if you moved to France, say.
I am Filipino myself. This isn't a racial matter.
Posted by: luisalegria | Feb 5, 2005 3:33:34 PM
The first pop futurologist is what Spengler was. I wouldn't be surprised if he did aromatherapy and shit too.
From 1917 on (even from 1900) European culture was flooded with nutters, on a scale that makes the American Sixties look placid. In various nations you had armed political gangs going around killing people. Not a place to look for wisdom, IMHO.
And As I said above, there has to be a statute of limitations on dire predictions. We can't keep letting Armageddon be postponed over and over again. Ain't gonna happen. Bad prediction. Same with the Road to Serfdom.
Posted by: John Emerson | Feb 5, 2005 3:47:33 PM
Mr. Emerson,
You are an impatient fellow !
Give it time.
As for Hayek, he was supposing the unfettered operation of socialist policy. Obviously an thankfully there were effective enemies of socialism. And then there is the role of economic feedback - too much socialism = too little prosperity = loss of support for socialism. Britain and Sweden and even France have gone through partial reversals.
I don't think he took that part into account.
On the other hand, can you say that there is no intense pressure to limit personal freedom operating today ? Comparing America and Britain vs the past, one cannot smoke, drive, speak, invest or travel with the freedom of the 19th century, at least within the scope of government policy. It is only the advance of technology that has expanded freedom.
Posted by: luisalegria | Feb 5, 2005 4:05:32 PM
Maybe for rich white men. Everyone else has benefitted from long hard political struggle.
Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Feb 5, 2005 5:14:04 PM
"You certainly don't have to listen to me, God knows, this forum isn't exactly one where we conservatives are going to get a friendly hearing."
Well, probably not, but I for one am glad when Bellmore and luislegria come around. Mr. Alegria condescends with a gentleman's graciousness, a 19th century courteousness that I find entertaining.
But Tacitus returns! With I suspect a new committment to focus that the multiple-poster period did not permit. Though the comment section had always been entertaining, the blog itself had become diffuse. I hope luisalegria will return there at least.
Posted by: bob mcmanus | Feb 5, 2005 5:27:33 PM
Of course, Yglesias and Holbo were also writing in the wake of Reynolds' follow-up post (http://instapundit.com/archives/020970.php), in which he says that "hostility toward America, and the West generally, is far too common in the academy." And, of course, that is also the point of the post Yglesias directly linked to. Churchill--who certainly is anti-"Western values"--is claimed to be the "face of the left." So, again, there's no strawman-burning here. Reynolds is explicitly claiming that the American left--which is certainly more conservative than that in virtually any other liberal democracy--is suffused with a hatred of Wetsern values. (And, on top of that, calling people who disagree with him on substantive policies "treasonous.") And this claim is both plainly false and reprehensible McCarthyite propaganda.
Posted by: Scott Lemieux | Feb 5, 2005 5:47:06 PM
Louis,
You need to review the difference between evaluating the utility of an ideology and the universalization of a maxim. "Would we prefer a world governed by Bushism or Castroism" does not qualify as the former. Moreover, this is a terrible test, since "Bushism" (as you semi-admit) is not a potential example of a moral maxim but a collection of ethical and consequentialist judgments, a configuration of maxims. Many of Bush's foreign-policy positions, for example, would never pass Kant's test for moral behavior because they treat individuals as means rather than ends unto themselves. I think this is an example of how to undermine your point by trying to appear learned.
Since when is "Spengler can't be falsified" a response to my observation about Weber's take down of Spengler? More to the point, how can you possibly combine claims like "It is only the advance of technology that has expanded freedom", however absurd they may be, with any sort of a positive invocation of Spengler?
Interestingly, I just came back from a day spent on assessments of Chinese foreign policy. I'd love to see some of your sources on the nature of the Sino-Japanese dispute and on recent publications reviving Chinese revisionist claims.
John: ah, yes, the glorious early twentieth century, when occultism and mysticism were the flavors du jour from Russia, to Germany, to the United States.
Posted by: Lee Scoresby | Feb 5, 2005 5:58:10 PM
Should be, of course, "latter" rather than "former."
Posted by: Lee Scoresby | Feb 5, 2005 6:00:05 PM
... Churchill--who certainly is anti-"Western values" ...
What Western values is Churchill against? I read the essay that he's being crucified for, and it seems to me he's just against brutality and hypocrisy. Now those qualities are all too common in the West (and in the East), but they are not usually thought of as Western values.
Posted by: synykyl | Feb 5, 2005 7:21:05 PM
Well, to quote from the essay itself, for example:
"In sum one can discern a certain optimism – it might even be call humanitarianism – imbedded in the thinking of those who presided over the very limited actions conducted on September 11."
And that's quite representative. Reynolds is right, of course, that this essay is thoroughly illiberal, appalling nonsense. And, of course, to equate Churchill with Barbara Boxer is equally appalling.
Posted by: Scott Lemieux | Feb 5, 2005 7:46:46 PM
What Western value is that quote is disparaging?
Posted by: synykyl | Feb 5, 2005 8:08:09 PM
Oops. I meant to say:
What Western value is that quote disparaging?
Posted by: synykyl | Feb 5, 2005 8:09:46 PM
Luis Alegria,
The pedant in me needs to point that it is not "Puerto Alegre", but "Porto Alegre." Portuguese is the official language of Brazil, not Spanish.
Where'd all this straw come from?
That explains why you're feeling lightheaded these days, Al.
Posted by: Randy Paul | Feb 5, 2005 10:54:52 PM
Reynolds is explicitly claiming that the American left--which is certainly more conservative than that in virtually any other liberal democracy--is suffused with a hatred of Wetsern values.
Bullsh*t!
He doesn't claim that explicitly or even implicitly. In EITHER of his posts.
He claims that there is a "swath of academia" that is anti-West. But "swath of academia" =/= "the Left".
Sheesh. Reading comprehension is really down these days.
Matthew's post was a complete strawman argument. Admit it.
Posted by: Al | Feb 6, 2005 1:13:30 AM
"What Western values is Churchill against? I read the essay that he's being crucified for, and it seems to me he's just against brutality and hypocrisy. Now those qualities are all too common in the West (and in the East), but they are not usually thought of as Western values."
This is the kind of denial I'm talking about. Churchill said Al Qaeda wasn't brutal enough!
From an LA Times article:
Using occasionally crude language, he ridiculed Americans in general and spoke in admiring terms of the Al Qaeda hijackers.
If anything, he wrote, the "combat teams" were too patient and restrained in their attacks.
Churchill called the Pentagon (news - web sites) a legitimate target and said: "As for the World Trade Center…. Well, really. Let's get a grip here, shall we? … True enough, they were civilians of a sort. But innocent? Gimme a break."
The guilt of those who died at ground zero, he wrote, was having toiled in the "very heart of America's global financial empire." For that, Churchill called them "little Eichmanns," after Nazi leader Adolf Eichmann.
And then we have that professor who hoped for "a million Mogadishus".
Now, I agree that using these people to smear the Democratic Party is wrong. However, Democrats and liberals do themselves no favors by failing to condemn this. You dont see Republicans when faced with Klan rallies going, "Well, they dont REALLY hate blacks, they are just against crime and affirmative action."
That's how some of you sound!
Posted by: Adam Herman | Feb 6, 2005 6:52:35 AM
Al--he said, in exactly these words, that Ward Churchill "is the face of the left." He then compared him directly to two Democratic Senators. Yglesias's characterization of Reynolds' argument is entirely accurate. Admit it.
Posted by: Scott Lemieux | Feb 6, 2005 11:41:18 AM
However, Democrats and liberals do themselves no favors by failing to condemn this. You dont see Republicans when faced with Klan rallies going, "Well, they dont REALLY hate blacks, they are just against crime and affirmative action."
No, but you see Rush Limbaugh, when faced with Abu Graib torture scandals, saying, "That's nothing more than frat boy hazing." And Rush, as we all know, is the face of the right.
In any case, I seriously doubt you could find that many progressives who agree with Churchill's overheated rhetoric.
Posted by: ScrewyRabbit | Feb 6, 2005 11:51:04 AM
Scott Lemieux - let me see if I understand your argument:
1. Glenn says that "swaths of academics" are anti-West.
2. Ward Churchill is an academic.
3. Glenn says that Churchill is the face of the Left.
4. Hence, Glenn must think that the Left is anti-West (the claim that Matthew attributes to Glenn)?
Do you REALLY think that is a logical argument?
Posted by: Al | Feb 6, 2005 12:28:30 PM
Do you REALLY think that is a logical argument?
I dunno, Al, "the face of the Left" sounds like "the guy who represents everyone on the Left". To say this guy is anti-West is to say "the Left is anti-West".
Posted by: ScrewyRabbit | Feb 6, 2005 12:35:45 PM
Well, actually Al, yes I do. Reynolds says that Churchill="the left." He says this directly, and you haven't refuted it. So, your argument depends on Reynolds believing that Churchill is *not*, in fact, "anti-western" (but Ted Kennedy and Daily Kos are.) IOW, your argument is that Reynolds thinks that believing that the victims of 9/11 had it coming is not an "anti-wetsern" belief. Gee, Al, I know Reynolds is a sloppy thinker and a demagogic hack, but I think that's a little unfair.
Posted by: Scott Lemieux | Feb 6, 2005 12:53:02 PM
Reynolds says that Churchill="the left."
Wrong, what he said was that Churchill is the FACE of the left, as even ScrewyRabbit has admitted. It's obvious that the basic problem with Glenn's critics is that none of them know how to read.
Posted by: Al | Feb 6, 2005 2:59:36 PM
Wrong, what he said was that Churchill is the FACE of the left, as even ScrewyRabbit has admitted. It's obvious that the basic problem with Glenn's critics is that none of them know how to read.
Zizka! What up!
Posted by: Al | Feb 6, 2005 3:29:25 PM
I dunno, Al, "the face of the Left" sounds like "the guy who represents everyone on the Left".
Really? So you think that Glenn thinks that each and every one of Ward Churchill's beliefs are shared by "the majority of the citizens of Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Ireland, The United Kingdom, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Germany, Austria, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic"? That's silly.
Posted by: Al | Feb 6, 2005 3:38:16 PM
off itals
Posted by: Al | Feb 6, 2005 3:38:41 PM
Well, yes, I agree--that argument is so idiotic that Reynolds can't actually believe it. But that doesn't change the fact that he did, in fact, make it. Given that the majority of all the aforementioned countries are to the left of the Democratic Party, and given that Reynolds said that Ward Churchill=the American left, it's the inevitable implication of his argument. The fact that this argument is self-evident horseshit isn't my problem, or Matt's. Reynolds has erected his own strawman many times, and if he doesn't believe it he should stop saying it.
Posted by: Scott Lemieux | Feb 6, 2005 4:58:38 PM
Why should any of this surprise you of all people, Al? In other threads on this site you make equally fantastic assertions about people on the left, eg, that their talk about patriotism is ass-covering and that they do in fact relish seeing American soldiers killed. There are people who make up all sorts of horseshit about people on the left, and you're one of them.
Posted by: ScrewyRabbit | Feb 6, 2005 7:44:38 PM
Adam Herman,
Churchill's angry essay is extremely critical of U.S. policy, but being against U.S. policy is not the same thing as being against Western values.
When he mockingly compares the 9/11 attacks with U.S. actions, he is condemning our failure to live by the values we claim to hold dear, not celebrating the attacks or condemning the values themselves.
Posted by: synykyl | Feb 6, 2005 11:35:26 PM
"No, but you see Rush Limbaugh, when faced with Abu Graib torture scandals, saying, "That's nothing more than frat boy hazing." And Rush, as we all know, is the face of the right."
That's a good point. Although I hesitate to call Rush the face of the right. He's a Republican shill who has been perfectly willing to abandon conservative principles for tactical reasons.
"Churchill's angry essay is extremely critical of U.S. policy, but being against U.S. policy is not the same thing as being against Western values.
When he mockingly compares the 9/11 attacks with U.S. actions, he is condemning our failure to live by the values we claim to hold dear, not celebrating the attacks or condemning the values themselves."
You obviously didn't read the same essay I did. And he is against one of the most important Western values: economic liberty. The man is an avowed Marxist.
Posted by: Adam Herman | Feb 7, 2005 3:51:32 AM
AND Greece-the cradle of Western Civilization-to boot.
.."The anti-west faction of the west turns out to include the majority of the citizens of Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Ireland, The United Kingdom, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Germany, Austria, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic. The citizens, in other words, of every countries normally understood to be inhabited by western persons except for the United States and Israel."..
Posted by: Nicolas Sakkis | Feb 7, 2005 10:45:45 AM
By the way, Israel is not being run by Sephardic Jews. Ashkenazi Jews are the majority of the population. Majority of the cabinet. Never been a Sephardic Prime Minister. Man, you don't even know what you are talking about.
Uh, yeah he does. It doesn't matter who is at the top, Likud first came to power on the back of disgruntled Sephardic voters stuck in development towns. Back then it was more about how they hated the Ashkenazi elite than how much they hated Arabs but I don't know if that's true anymore. The Sephardic vote now is split between Shas and Likud but since they govern as a coalition it doesn't really matter.
The right in Israeli politics works just like it does here. They get the rich and the redneck.
Posted by: absynthe | Feb 7, 2005 11:16:58 AM
... You obviously didn't read the same essay I did. And he is against one of the most important Western values: economic liberty. The man is an avowed Marxist ...
Adam,
I think we read the same essay, I'm just more forgiving of the angry rhetoric.
I don't see where in the essay Churchill comes out against "economic liberty". He does seem to have a grudge against "Wall Street" and "big corporations", but that is so common among Westerners it could be considered a Western value in itself.
BTW, Marx was a Westerner, and there are plenty of Westerners who accept at least some of his ideas and values.
Posted by: synykyl | Feb 7, 2005 2:14:47 PM
http://www.counterpunch.org/churchill02032005.html
What Ward Churchill actually said was that using the same twisted logic as the Pentagon does the WTC would be legitimate target. Ie intelligence office in skyscraper makes skyscraper a legitimate target.
Posted by: Hello | Feb 7, 2005 9:16:13 PM
Try this theory on for size and see if you're
co