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The Music Tax
Via Mark Kleiman, an op-ed arguing for a new form of music compensation:
Turning to the arts, we find the British have recently reduced museum admission prices to zero. There's been no mass closing of museums, curators are not enslaved, the maintenance people still get paid for their work and paintings are bought from artists and collectors just as before, because the government pays everyone's "admission price." (Note that this principle does not lead to free symphony tickets. If I'm in a gallery and it's not packed, you can be there, too. But if I sit in seat 2, row F tonight, you can't.) . . .Mark describes this as "an important idea here, which could be adapted to cover text and film as well." I'd prefer this to the RIAA's techno-dystopia where any technology that could conceivably be used by anyone, anywhere to listen to a song they haven't paid for (say I buy a copy of a CD, burn a duplicate to store in my car, and lend my car to my buddy who listens to the CD while driving and at the same time I listen to the original at home -- piracy!) is banned. But I'm not convinced we need to implement it, either. I think before we contemplate any departure from the status quo (which, I believe, includes the idea that Grokster, BitTorrent, etc. are legal) I would like to see something resembling evidence that the availability of P2P technology is leading to a decline in the number of people writing songs, forming bands, etc.What we need for music is analogous: a reasonably good assessment of how much play a given recording gets and a mechanism to steer public funds mostly to the ones people are listening to a lot. No amount of suing downloaders, or yelling about whether file-sharing is theft or music "wants to be free," nor any court proceeding, can create such a system. Congress must legislate public machinery that: 1) observes music use without compromising listeners' privacy and 2) bureaucratically steers a public royalty fund to creators according to how much their work is listened to.
As I've noted in the past, the RIAA doesn't even try to argue that this is happening, instead offering questionable evidence that album sales by RIAA members have gone down as a result of P2P. This may be true or it may be false (the evidence, as I say, is ambiguous) but it's completely irrelevant one way or the other. In light of the very large number of people who form bands and play songs without any reasonable prospect of ever making money doing so, the opportunities for money-making by selling tickets and merchandise, and various other factors, I'm highly dubious that the spread of P2P will ever have an averse impact on the availability of music.
Film is another matter. Here it really is the case that unless it's possible for at least some movies to earn massive profits, an awful lot of the movies made nowadays simply couldn't be produced. On the other hand, buying a ticket to see a movie in a theater was already an extraordinary uneconomical mode of cinema-consumption before downloading became a possibility. It's something people (myself included) engage in as a social experience and because (duh) movie theaters have really big screens that don't fit in normal peoples' living rooms. It also seems to me that there's a large possibility for cable (or other telecommunications) companies to turn large On Demand libraries into profit centers.
But I'll happily concede that I may be proven wrong about these speculations. If evidence emerges that trends are pointing in a bad direction, then something like this model seems like a reasonable thing to move toward.
May 17, 2005 | Permalink
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» Michael O'Hare's Fuzzy Math from Electoral Math
Before this gets out of hand, I feel the need to burst some balloons. Also, subsidizing small artists is the urban version of subsidizing small farmers. Discuss. [Read More]
Tracked on May 18, 2005 3:12:01 AM
» PAY TO PLAY from Begging To Differ
Mark Cuban and Michael O'Hare would like the RIAA to stop suing us, please. Sounds good to me. Well, until you get into the specifics. First up: Cuban, arguing that Yahoo's $5/month all-you-can-eat music pricing model will put a cap... [Read More]
Tracked on May 18, 2005 11:49:58 AM
» PAY TO PLAY from Begging To Differ
Mark Cuban and Michael O'Hare would like the RIAA to stop suing us, please. Sounds good to me. Well, until you get into the specifics. First up: Cuban, arguing that Yahoo's $5/month all-you-can-eat music pricing model will put a cap... [Read More]
Tracked on May 18, 2005 11:52:35 AM
» Cuban makes the "5 buck" argument from bennellibrothers.com
Although I obviously dont think it would work, the debate over IP and copyright in this digital world is an interesting one. I love when people try to stick it to the RIAA since i think they have done a good job of ripping off both the artists and the ... [Read More]
Tracked on May 18, 2005 5:41:38 PM
» PAY TO PLAY from Begging To Differ
Mark Cuban and Michael O'Hare would like the RIAA to stop suing us, please. Sounds good to me. Well, until you get into the specifics. First up: Cuban, arguing that Yahoo's $5/month all-you-can-eat music pricing model will put a cap... [Read More]
Tracked on May 19, 2005 2:04:08 PM
Comments
"In light of the very large number of people who form bands and play songs without any reasonable prospect of ever making money doing so, the opportunities for money-making by selling tickets and merchandise, and various other factors, I'm highly dubious that the spread of P2P will ever have an averse impact on the availability of music."
Huh? I know people here in Nashville who do quirky, well-respected-by-their-peers music on the fringes--doing club dates with iffy audiences, lacking well-established names that sell merchandise, etc.--and who depend on such royalties as they can get from their songwriting to stay in the business. Lots of people want to do what they love; they also want to eat and clothe themselves--maybe have kids and get them through college, even. If people respond to what they've created, the creators deserve support. To say that you don't have to support them because they'll do it for free anyway may or may not stem the flow of creativity, but it's still a nasty, spoiled-brat attitude--not unlike the common argument that teachers shouldn't expect decent pay because the joy of teaching should be enough for them. If you depend on someone else's work for your goods and refuse to compensate them for their labor, you're as much an exploiter as any robber baron.
Posted by: David | May 17, 2005 11:50:54 PM
What's wrong with the system as it is?
Posted by: epistemology | May 18, 2005 12:00:00 AM
Ok. I'm turning Republican.
First of all. You don't have any *RIGHT* to listen to other people's music. It's a *LUXURY*. They choose to record their music and make it available for a small fee.
If you don't like the small fee, you can choose to do what consumers of luxury goods for ages have done. You can choose to not buy it. Or you can do what I did in college, you can tape the song off the radio. Yep, it's a crappy recording, but you know what... it's nearly free. That's your tradeoff buckaroo.
And I *ESPECIALLY* have a problem with all the con artists out there(you know who you are Shawn Fanning, et. al) who take other peoples music and then make it available without permission with the expression purpose of making their own fortune off of it. You know what... that was someone elses work. You *DO NOT* have the right to go make money off of someone elses labor without permission or paying recompense.
This BS is going too far. As someone who works in an industry which is fundamentally protected by intellectual property rights(software), I am extremely worried by the attitudes of entitlement. computers, music, video... these are all luxuries.
If you're having trouble obtaining food, clothing and shelter, let me know. I want to help. I want to help you get to a job so you can help to support yourself, so I'm willing to help pay for public transportation. Plus I'm selfish. I love my car, and I'm tired of wearing it out by just driving to work.
But enough with this bullshit Government should pay artists, programmers or writers because they are entitled to it because the people who ought to be buying their work product are fucking leeching off society. There's an answer to this issue, and that's to start reminding people that living in an informational society means that commerce behaves differently and copyrights and patents have to mean something.
That doesn't mean sometimes the companies and Government don't go too far. They do. I'm appalled at the copyright bit, copyright extensions and other things. But completely abandoning the Rule of Law is not the answer.
Unless this was just a snarky bizarre proposal intended to make people think. In which case I'll apologize for my attack and instead write one about how utterly stupid you guys are for reinforcing the stereotype that Democrats just want Government to handle all of our money. Why not just buy our houses too? Developers can make houses, and the ones which people like and move into, the govenrment can give them more money for. Bizarre.
Posted by: J. Caesar | May 18, 2005 12:18:49 AM
Y'know, I agree with you on about 95% of the political issues you write about, Matthew. That is what makes your blind spot on IP so glaring.
Given your family background, one ends up wondering if your distaste for intellectual property rights has some kind of Freudian component...
-----
"...instead offering questionable evidence that album sales by RIAA members have gone down as a result of P2P. This may be true or it may be false (the evidence, as I say, is ambiguous)"
It's really not ambiguous at all. Music sales went up in basically a straight line path through boom and bust from the 50's through the introduction of Napster. They then suddenly went into their first sustained slump in 45 years, and remain today below their pre-Napster peak.
Posted by: Petey | May 18, 2005 12:32:34 AM
As to O'Hare's proposal:
It's politically impossible, and thus won't happen. But it's a nice utopian solution to the problem.
Posted by: Petey | May 18, 2005 12:36:49 AM
You're wrong, Matt, and I'm living proof of it. We had a band, pretty good band -- maybe if you live in the tri-county area you've heard of us? The Union of Nepalese Birdmen? Anyway, we had a deal set up for a MAJOR release with Slightly Scratched records -- major promo, national tour, appearances on Meet The Press, the works. As a tie-in, we were even gonna get a guest shot on Law & Order as a gang of blackmailing child-rapist pregnant teenage cop killers.
But then I got to thinking, about copyrights. This was before the Sonny Bono act, copyright reform, so my songs would've gone into the public domain a crummy 50 years after I die... I'm 30 now so say I live to be 80... that means that if I write a song, in like 100 years it goes public and any la-di-da busker or common street rover can perform it for free. For FREE.
Well, f*** that. It just wasn't worth the effort. I'm not going to all that trouble for nothing. So I broke up the band and now I work as an actuary for a gang of drug-addled incest-victim kidnappers.
Sure they passed the Bono Act but it's too late for me. I'm lost to the arts. The world will never hear my compositions... "Stalin Paid My Visa Bill", "Let's Fuck", "World Made Of Lobsters", all the rest.
Your loss.
Posted by: herostratus | May 18, 2005 12:40:16 AM
"As someone who works in an industry which is fundamentally protected by intellectual property rights(software), I am extremely worried by the attitudes of entitlement."
The irony is to look at the industry Matthew's father works in...
Posted by: Petey | May 18, 2005 12:44:17 AM
"...so my songs would've gone into the public domain a crummy 50 years after I die"
I believe the correct position is to simultaneously be in favor of weaker copyright law and stronger anti-piracy law. The two are not the same thing.
Posted by: Petey | May 18, 2005 12:46:41 AM
Perhaps now musicians will return to the status they had back in the pre-recording days; a few hard-touring acts will be popular, and the rest will get by, or play part time while holding down day jobs. No more mega-wealthy, self-indulgent, spoiled rock stars. Just people drawn to a calling.
Sounds good to me.
Posted by: Scott Free | May 18, 2005 12:55:13 AM
Matthew writes: "say I buy a copy of a CD, burn a duplicate to store in my car, and lend my car to my buddy who listens to the CD while driving and at the same time I listen to the original at home -- piracy!"
No, that's not piracy.
And while if you had given the copied CD to your friend, that would indeed have been piracy, everyone knows the real problem is the combination of perfect digital reproduction and anonymous mass-distribution over the internet.
Why is this the one issue where you have to resort to straw men?
Posted by: Petey | May 18, 2005 12:59:00 AM
Whoa. Calm down Petey. Matt's actually absolutely right.
This isn't about spoiled kids on the internet welching on their obligation to musicians. This is about whether we want to spend precious public resources on draconian measures to enforce one particular business model for a handful of recording giants. "Sense of entitlement" cuts both ways.
To start with, nobody has actually shown that filesharing is doing any harm. The RIAA claims that their member's sales have dipped, but the numbers they release are pretty fishy, e.g., they report a decline because they got a better handle on their supply chain and shipped less surplus to retailers. Whatever decline there has been *might* correlate with the advent of Napster, or just *maybe* it corresponds to an economic recession, the toll of 20 years of steady increases in album prices (plus price fixing!), and increasing competition for scarce after-school-job paychecks (think cell phones, video games, movies, hydraulics for the Honda...). There's also the possibility that the decline in RIAA member sales has been more than made up by smaller labels.
AFAIK, the only independent study into the matter found only a weak correlation between file sharing and album sales, and what little effect there was was *positive*. This makes a lot of sense: CDs and MP3s are not direct substitutes, and file sharing is a very efficient mechanism for listeners to find music they like - substantial numbers than go out and *buy it*. Studios are apparently willing to go to great lengths to get their records played on the radio for the same reason, they produce promotional music videos at great cost and give them away, there are at least a couple of stories already of unknown, unsigned musicians riding to success on a wave of filesharing popularity. Why isn't the internet viewed as just another promotional medium?
It's also important not conflate the interests of the recording studios with the musicians themselves. My impression is that, after percentages, promotional fees, etc., very few artists see much of the revenue from their record sales. Even many seemingly successful artists have decided to walk out on their studio contracts in frustration. Most of the money an average band makes comes from concert sales and merchandise - which isn't controlled by the studio.
This leads me to conclude that if file sharing were legalized completely, most artists probably wouldn't be much affected. They could release recordings on the internet as a promotional tool (as many do already!), and make an honest living performing and selling merchandise. In fact, artists and small record labels could probably still do a brisk business selling CDs, which fans buy as much for the cover art and the chance to own a piece of their favorite band as they do for the bits burned onto the disk.
This all seems like a much better alternative than asking that the government force the world to pay whatever the RIAA member studios think they're entitled to.
Posted by: Jack Lecou | May 18, 2005 3:26:03 AM
"Whatever decline there has been *might* correlate with the advent of Napster."
If you want to look at the data without any intellectual honesty, you can reach any conclusion you please. If I hit you over the head with a wrench and steal all your money, that *might* correlate with your inability to buy food. Who knows? Life is full of mysteries.
I hear global warming *might* just be a big coincidence too.
"This leads me to conclude that if file sharing were legalized completely, most artists probably wouldn't be much affected."
Well, after the boatload of canards and falsehoods you've tossed up, I'm not surprised you reach that conclusion.
- The labels rip off the artists, so piracy is OK.
- We'll ignore the clear evidence of the impact of file-sharing on sales, so piracy is OK.
- "Substantial numbers" of people who pirate music then buy the same music (ha!), so piracy is OK.
- Piracy is good for bands, even if they don't realize it, so piracy is OK.
You may find it OK to live in a world where an artist cannot charge for a audio recording or a movie, but I think anyone who has bothered to think it out would not.
"This is about whether we want to spend precious public resources on draconian measures to enforce one particular business model..."
I have no real affection for O'Hare's suggestion. I'd be perfectly happy with simple draconian anti-piracy enforcement methods.
"Whoa. Calm down Petey."
Sorry, buddy. I know too many people in bands and elsewhere in the music industry who've been hurt by piracy. I know too many people in the film & TV industries who are very worried about the future. And I've seen the real damage done to the availability of new music.
It is not your right to take commercially produced art and entertainment for free just because enforcement hasn't caught up with the technology. People work to produce that art and entertainment, and if you take their work without paying their listed price, you ought to go to jail.
Posted by: Petey | May 18, 2005 4:24:39 AM
You say that the film industry is different, because they rely on a few blockbusters to finance the rest, but this is because films are still very expensive to make. This need not always be the case. Look at the way the cost of producing a CD has come down for a small, clubbing artist - all you need it a Mac! When I was a lad, you needed to hire a studio, hire THEIR engineer, hire someone to press the records, etc. etc. The cost of making movies is already coming down in a similar way, so small groups of students can make a classy movie, and money is becoming less of an issue than creativity in many genres. FX-heavy movies are still the big exception, but how long before the movie studio program on your Mac (whatever it is called) comes with a "fly through the air" plug-in, in the same way that photoshop comes with a "turn this photo into an impressionist dabby-thing" plug-in. [Forgive the non-technical language, but you get the idea...]
Posted by: Syd | May 18, 2005 4:42:21 AM
ok, lets take this slow, seems this debat makes people go crazy. First off, I know americans has this great fascination with property and feel this right falls like mana from heaven. With IP this is especially not true. Copyright started as censorship in Tudor England, it applied to books and was an attempt to control the disemination of new ideas though that devils instrument, the printing press (which I am sure most monks thought was a bad idea, as it grabed the fruits of their 700+ years of work preserving great works and used it).
So lets just make something clear: Copyrights is a form of regulation made by government. It is meant to be leaky, it is a priviledge afforded to "promote the growth of science and arts" (quoted from memory from the american constitution) and making the trade-off between greater incentive to produce new ideas and art and greater disemination.
Copyrights has been expanded and expanded, from the original 14 years to lifetime + 70 year and to cover more and more things. It is a old institution fitting to a different technological and institutional envionment
From an economists view its important to remember this point, and i cannot be stated too many times...Digital music has become a non-rival good with very imperfect excludability, that means it becoming more like a public good.
Im not so afraid for lack of progress of the arts due to lack of incentive for creators. I am afraid for it due to the rampant expropriation of culture for the sake of profit, protected by govermentally granted monopolies.
Sorry for the rant, its early here.
Posted by: Tomas | May 18, 2005 4:57:14 AM
"So lets just make something clear: Copyrights is a form of regulation made by government."
As is true with all private property.
Government makes laws protecting both physical and intellectual property because society benefits by having both physical and intellectual property protected.
"Copyrights has been expanded and expanded, from the original 14 years to lifetime + 70 year"
Copyright terms have been grossly over-expanded. I'd say something like 35 years would be more than sufficient for recorded audio/visual material. But whatever copyright terms are set should be enforced.
Posted by: Petey | May 18, 2005 5:13:03 AM
Society benefits from private property under two conditions:
1) The good held privately is rival (I eat you cake, you cant eat it.)
2) It is possible (with low cost) to exclude people from using the good
if these two does not hold, it is not a good idea to have privat property. Now since there is an incentive problem for creators SOME form of regulation is needed, tax and distribute can do that.
Posted by: Tomas | May 18, 2005 5:20:58 AM
"Copyright started as censorship in Tudor England, it applied to books and was an attempt to control the disemination of new ideas though that devils instrument, the printing press"
Half true, half false. Intellectual property protection did indeed originate soon after the printing press, but it was not about censorship. Instead, much like today, it was about protecting the publisher's rights.
And it is no coincidence that it originated soon after the printing press, which was the first technology of mass mechanical reproduction. The situation for the text publishers in the age of the printing press was almost identical to that of audio/visual publishers in the age of the internet: without regulation and enforcement of intellectual property, mechanical reproduction threatens to remove all profit from publishing.
Posted by: Petey | May 18, 2005 5:25:13 AM
"Society benefits from private property under two conditions ... if these two does not hold, it is not a good idea to have privat property."
Well, Tomas, the first condition you list (rival goods only) precludes any intellectual property protection at all. And, of course, that would mean that there would be no profit in publishing anything that could be cheaply reproduced.
No profit in books, film, recorded music, software, or drugs.
I see a societal benefit in protecting investment in the creation of those things.
Posted by: Petey | May 18, 2005 5:33:28 AM
"Half true, half false. Intellectual property protection did indeed originate soon after the printing press, but it was not about censorship. Instead, much like today, it was about protecting the publisher's rights"
Well, the statute of Anne in 1709 was about weighting the claims of publishers and authors to the public interest in the spread of ideas through cheap books.
But before this there was already established copyrights in england.
In 1557 Mary Tudor instituted a exclusive monopoly of printing in order to control it, which gave printers a licensed monopoly as long as their did not print unwanted books. (Vaidhyanathan "Copyrights and copywrongs" 2001)
Vaidhyanathan´s book it very refreshing and interesting and i would encourage all who are interested in this topic to read it.
Im also sorry if I seem a little muttled, but i need to finish a term paper on this topic and my head is in "danish academic writing" mode
Posted by: Tomas | May 18, 2005 5:40:09 AM
Two points that don't seem to have been covered:
1) Unlike physical goods, the most beneficial (in terms of utility to The World As A Whole) way of distributing existing IP is to make it universally available at zero cost. If you've any utilitarian instincts, this should be a serious consideration.
2) Pirate movies don't compete with movie theatres, they compete with DVDs - just as the markets for DVDs and movie theatre tickets are entirely separate. This provides a theoretical funding mechanism for expensive movies even if DVD sales are wiped out (which is unlikely).
Posted by: john b | May 18, 2005 5:42:55 AM
Rival goods does not exclude all IP. Drugs are rival, physical books are also rival (you can make more efficient use of them through libraries), seats in movie theathers are rival. But yes, copyrights are very problematic in this respect. As we already have agreed, the state creates private property as a means to create social welfare. Private property is thus a social mechanism of regulation, a form of policy.
If it has high social cost to create a private property system system (which it does if the resource is nonrival), then a public policy solution is needed.
Note that this doesnt mean that goverment has to control and produce art, only that it has to insure some kind of payout for artists.
Posted by: Tomas | May 18, 2005 5:52:08 AM
Tomas,
My understanding is that for 200 years after the invention of the printing press, copyright had nothing to do with censorship. Then for a period of about 20 years in the 17th century, copyright was tied to censorship before it was untied again.
If my understanding is correct, saying that "Copyright started as censorship" is a pretty inaccurate representation.
Posted by: Petey | May 18, 2005 5:53:22 AM
Petey, control the kneejerk and open your mind for a minute.
The end goal here is to induce artists to make lots of high quality recordings and performances available to the public and enrich our culture. The specifics of how we accomplish that don't really matter. Paying musicians for the privelige of listening to recordings of their past performances is not an end unto itself.
Our economy is not based on the Labor Theory of Value. Nobody is actually *entitled* to anything more for the product of their labor than the market will bear, or society wishes to tolerate.
*ONE* scheme we have found fruitful is to make laws granting temporary monopolies so that non-rival goods like musical recordings have a positive price. This isn't an entitlement, it's an inducement, and it should be the minimum required to meet our goal. The level of protection required may sometimes turn out to be zero. If it does, that's not bad, it's *good*.
To reach the conclusion that internet file sharing (of music) needs to be heavily regulated, you have to answer in the affirmative to at least two questions:
- Is file sharing actually doing any harm, even to the status quo?
This is not anywhere near as clear cut as you seem to think it is. RIAA started reporting declining sales around the time they went apeshit over Napster, but that's just post hoc ergo propter hoc. I gave at least 4 other equally plausible explanations for a decline, any combination of which is fully capable of explaining the relatively minor dip we're talking about. None of them has been adequately addressed by RIAA or anyone else. The only study to apply any degree of rigor to the question found only a very small *positive* correlation. Internet exposure may well *help* sales, just as radio airtime and music videos do.
- Assuming file sharing negatively affects record sales, is that actually impacting the incentives for musicians to produce music?
If the vast majority of musicians don't see any real money from their recording contracts, what purpose are the record companies serving? The studios are just middlemen, and if they're not actually facilitating the process of rewarding artists and producing music, there's no social need to keep them around.
If it is the case that most musicians already make their livings from touring and selling things like T-shirts and autographed CDs — not mass record sales — then perhaps recorded music can just be a happy side effect, and musicians would produce all the goods we want without an artificial monopoly.
Posted by: Jack Lecou | May 18, 2005 5:58:47 AM
"Rival goods does not exclude all IP. Drugs are rival."
The manufactured pill itself is rival, but the intellectual property that would allow for copying the drug is non-rival.
"If it has high social cost to create a private property system system (which it does if the resource is nonrival)"
Huh? Protecting intellectual property is no more expensive than protecting physical property, and probably considerably less expensive. Communities spend considerable resources on police and prisons to protect physical property.
Posted by: Petey | May 18, 2005 5:58:57 AM
"This is not anywhere near as clear cut as you seem to think it is. RIAA started reporting declining sales around the time they went apeshit over Napster, but that's just post hoc ergo propter hoc."
SoundScan is run by Nielsen, which has a multi-decade record of being a reputable and independent company. The numbers come from Nielsen, not the RIAA.
The numbers are out there in the public view, and are very much as clear cut as I've portrayed.
Like I said, if you have no intellectual honesty, you can try to spin black as white. You can claim warmer temperatures aren't connected to global warming. You can claim tax cuts aren't connected to the budget deficit. Go wild!
"Internet exposure may well *help* sales"
Anything you say, Jack.
Posted by: Petey | May 18, 2005 6:13:22 AM
More detail on the UK situation, which is much more complicated than the op-ed makes out. Many publicly owned museums already had free admission. What the government did was drop admission fees for all publicly owned museums, and give privately owned museums a VAT exemption if they did the same. Even now however, you often have to pay a fee to see temporary exhibits within museums. Usually it will just be a couple of quid, but for the really popular ones it can run to £8-£10. Bear in mind also that most publicly funded museums aren't showcasing new art, so there isn't much comparison with the music industry.
Posted by: Ginger Yellow | May 18, 2005 6:27:08 AM
Petey, the "high social cost" of creating and sustaining a private property system with nonrivalrous resources is that lots of people who could enjoy the benefits of those resources -- i.e., listen to songs that they would enjoy -- aren't able to, even though they could enjoy the benefits of those resources without infringing one anyone else's. This is, as we all know, what's fundamentally different about IP: if you have a loaf of bread, and I take it, you don't have that loaf of bread anymore. If you have an MP3 file, and I take it, we both now have the MP3 files. From a social perspective, assuming music is a good thing, it's hard to see how that's a negative.
The problem, as everyone here has acknowledged, is that some form of IP protection seems necessary to give creators an incentive to make IP. But figuring out just how strong that protection should be is an empirical question, not an ethical one. This is Matt's point -- if, even under the current system, there appears to be no dearth of excellent musicians willing to put out music, then why do we want to inflict the social cost of denying people the ability to listen to music? It doesn't matter if music is a luxury or not -- if it's a good thing for people to listen to music, you should want more people to do it, not fewer.
Posted by: Steve Carr | May 18, 2005 6:30:17 AM
Oh, and by the way, it's not true that music sales rose in a straight line since the 1950s. During the recessions of the 1970s and early 1980s, music sales fell noticeably.
Posted by: Steve Carr | May 18, 2005 6:32:57 AM
I am not denying that RIAA members have suffered a decline in sales (though a less drastic one than their spin would suggest). What I am not prepared to do is attribute a specific cause. Unless you control for the many other possible (likely!) contributing factors, you may as well conclude that the Y2K bug caused the slump.
http://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSharing_March2004.pdf
Posted by: Jack Lecou | May 18, 2005 6:38:46 AM
"But figuring out just how strong that protection should be is an empirical question, not an ethical one."
No doubt. For example, I'm in favor of weakening existing copyright terms, as they have grown to be clearly excessive. Mickey Mouse has been protected for 70 years. He ought to come into the public domain.
But whatever copyright terms are enacted ought to be enforced. Otherwise, the government is promising protection to a lot of folks working to create art and entertainment, and then allowing piracy to hollow them out of jobs.
"This is Matt's point -- if, even under the current system, there appears to be no dearth of excellent musicians willing to put out music"
I think the point is facile and false. We could remove all copyright protection from audio recordings, and people would still form bands. They just wouldn't be able to make money from making recording anymore.
I think we've seen a quite significant and noticeable loss in musical diversity over the past 7 years. This has been less apparent in the college/indie music scene than in the more mainstream scene for reasonably obvious economic reasons. But there are by definition more folks out there listening to more mainstream music than there are to college/indie music.
"if it's a good thing for people to listen to music, you should want more people to do it, not fewer."
Sure. I just have a reasonably strong belief in the ability of protected property as the best means to deliver the most music to the most people. It's a good thing for everyone to eat lots of fresh fish. But we charge money for fresh fish because...
Health care should be a universal right regardless of means, not choice of entertainment.
Posted by: Petey | May 18, 2005 6:44:48 AM
One other major point: in the hysteria of the moment, everyone is forgetting the main way an artist becomes successful - exposure. Without exposure, no one comes to shows, no one buys CDs, no one enables you to earn a living doing what you love. Again, from personal experience: in 37 years as a recording artist, I've created 25+ albums for major labels, and I've never once received a royalty check that didn't show I owed them money. So I make the bulk of my living from live touring, playing for 80-1500 people a night, doing my own show. I spend hours each week doing press, writing articles, making sure my website tour information is up to date. Why? Because all of that gives me exposure to an audience that might not come otherwise. So when someone writes and tells me they came to my show because they'd downloaded a song and gotten curious, I am thrilled!
Posted by: Jack Lecou | May 18, 2005 6:46:41 AM
Should have included:
Who gets hurt by free downloads? Save a handful of super-successes like Celine Dion, none of us. We only get helped.
Posted by: Jack Lecou | May 18, 2005 6:51:18 AM
"I am not denying that RIAA members have suffered a decline in sales ... What I am not prepared to do is attribute a specific cause."
I urge you to consider seeking work for the asbestos companies or the Republican Party. Your talents would come in handy in those places.
Since the 50's, music sales go steadily up through boom and bust, go steadily up through war and peace, go steadily up through the transition from 45's to LP's to cassettes to CD's, go steadily up through the introduction of TV, color TV, and FM radio, go steadily up through various distribution and pricing strategies, and then...
...and then with the introduction of mass digital reproduction over the internet, suddenly sales fall off a cliff. After steadily going up for almost 50 years, mass consumer piracy enters the scene, and sales suddenly fall by 35%, and remain considerably lower than late 90's levels 7 years later.
Maybe it was L'affair Lewinsky rather than piracy?
Posted by: Petey | May 18, 2005 6:56:24 AM
"Oh, and by the way, it's not true that music sales rose in a straight line since the 1950s. During the recessions of the 1970s and early 1980s, music sales fell noticeably."
I believe this to be untrue. As far as I'm aware, things only got flat at worst, and the longest period of flat sales has been only a couple of years.
But the data I have at hand is only from the 90's, and I'd be happy to be corrected.
Posted by: Petey | May 18, 2005 7:06:42 AM
35%!? Where do you get that? I think even RIAA only claims ~14%! (and see Soundscan numbers vs. RIAA numbers for some more perspective.)
Anyway, as noted above, record sales have historically dipped during recessions. (Color) TV would seem to have little do with anything. Despite the music industries inevitable initial fight, radio naturally boosted their sales.
Anyway, how do these sound:
...and then, with CD prices increasing by 10% while DVDs fell 20%, suddenly CD sales fell off...
...and then, when every man woman and child 11-85 suddenly needed a cell phone and $40 worth of instant messaging every month, sales suddenly fell off...
...and then, with a crop of new independent record labels on the scene, sales by the established players suddenly fell off...
...and then, with the video game industry experiencing 20% year on year growth, CD sales suddenly fell off...
Are you starting to get the picture?
Posted by: Jack Lecou | May 18, 2005 7:27:08 AM
I have a little question for herostratus: why on earth are you so worked up over people performing your music for free after you die? It's not like you're going to be able to reap any profits from within your grave.
Jeez.
Posted by: bi | May 18, 2005 7:30:37 AM
Good independent record shops thriving, *because* of file sharing. Crappy ones that can't provide the new varieties of music people learn to like can't take it.
Posted by: Jack Lecou | May 18, 2005 7:42:50 AM
In light of the very large number of people who form bands and play songs without any reasonable prospect of ever making money doing so, the opportunities for money-making by selling tickets and merchandise, and various other factors, I'm highly dubious that the spread of P2P will ever have an averse impact on the availability of music.
It also seems to be the case that the spread of identity theft is having no adverse impact on the availability of human beings with genuine identities and real jobs. Apparently a lot of people continue to to reproduce and work, simply because they love doing it, or have to do it. So I wouldn't worry about identity theft either.
Posted by: Dan Kervick | May 18, 2005 7:50:06 AM
"35%!? Where do you get that? I think even RIAA only claims ~14%!"
The drop of 14% figure in the article you link seems to be world sales from '01 to '04. The 35% drop comes in U.S. sales from the peak in '98 to '04.
"Are you starting to get the picture?"
Yeah. You're willing to lie and twist figure to justify stealing other people's work.
Posted by: Petey | May 18, 2005 8:36:41 AM
In light of the very large number of people who form bands and play songs without any reasonable prospect of ever making money doing so, the opportunities for money-making by selling tickets and merchandise, and various other factors, I'm highly dubious that the spread of P2P will ever have an averse impact on the availability of music.
It also seems to be the case that the spread of Ebola, Marburg, Avian Flu, and AIDS are having no adverse impact on the growth of the human species. (Other than in a few localized pockets at this time that we'll find it convenient to ignore). Apparently a lot of people continue to to reproduce and not die young, simply because they love reproducing and living, or because they manage to avoid the epidemics. So I wouldn't worry about the horrible epidemic diseases either. I'm highly dubious they will ever have an averse impact on the availability of years of your life, or of the lives of those you love.
Posted by: Petey | May 18, 2005 8:44:41 AM
Petey, what on earth is you basis for saying that a property system is the best way to produce music. You keep dodging the public good issue and start talking about fresh fish.
Posted by: Tomas | May 18, 2005 8:48:39 AM
Btw, state control of British museums including their incomes is why British museums have no money and no energy. Just as British universities have been ruined by state control and living off their past, where an Oxford professor makes the same income as a Harvard graduate student, and spends alot of their time thinking about moving to the States, so the British museums are living off their past in a way that the Met or Guggenheims are not. Yes, the maintenance people still get paid, the rest sinks into decline.
One could even make the argument that the reason why British popular music has been so successful is that it's one of the few areas of the economy with limited state intervention.
Posted by: otto | May 18, 2005 8:51:31 AM
"Are you starting to get the picture?"
Now perhaps I am.
Using your standard of wild inferences where you think it will aid your case, I'm beginning to strongly believe that you are:
- a smelly hippy who doesn't bath
- someone who isn't comfortable with logic and numbers
- someone who works for a filesharing company.
- someone who who believes all property is theft
- someone with a lower degree of intellectual honesty than George Bush.
Are you starting to get the picture?
Posted by: Petey | May 18, 2005 8:51:36 AM
"Petey, what on earth is you basis for saying that a property system is the best way to produce music. You keep dodging the public good issue and start talking about fresh fish."
Sorry. I thought the analogy was obvious. Forgive me if it was too obtuse.
Posted by: Petey | May 18, 2005 8:53:46 AM
At long last, Petey brings out his ad hominem trump card.
I still don't get what herostratus is worked up about.
Posted by: bi | May 18, 2005 9:03:11 AM
"Despite the music industries inevitable initial fight, radio naturally boosted their sales."
Radio obviously pre-dated mass music sales by several decades, of course...
Posted by: Petey | May 18, 2005 9:04:15 AM
"At long last, Petey brings out his ad hominem trump card."
I dunno what else to do when debating someone who seems not bound by even internal consistency in his arguments. We've seen:
- Piracy doesn't hurt sales
- Piracy hurts sales, but it also helps sales.
- OK, piracy really does hurt sales, but we don't care cuz it's hurting the bad people only, and the good people actually benefit.
That makes him a jerk in my mind, who can't be argued with by any means I'm aware other than trying to politely calling him a jerk.
If you know of a better argumentative technique against someone throwing such a variety of shit up onto the wall to see what'll stick, please let me know.
Posted by: Petey | May 18, 2005 9:26:46 AM
"Good for you" in economist languages mean "raises aggrate (sp?) utility levels". It does not mean "healthy for people to eat", that a merit good that society should subsidice (if there is such a thing as merit goods but that is another discussion).
We can have a philosophical discussion about whether you can compare utility levels, but not whether a public good and a merit good is the same thing. The REASON a public good is called a PUBLIC good is that private enterprise will produce (or make it available) in a far too small quantity to be socially efficient. why you ask? Because its socially efficent for the price of things to reflect their marginal cost, but if the marginal cost is 0 (as it is with a nonrival good) then private enterprise will have to charge above 0 to make a buck, ei. they are not effiecent. I know this is kinda simple stuff but it mattes.
Go read up on you economics 101. Then we can discuss the merits of intellectual property.
Posted by: Tomas | May 18, 2005 9:29:35 AM
And what is it exactly that caused "music sales" to reach "mass" level?
The "fresh fish" analogy is bogus, as is any analogy that compares music to depletable material goods ( http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,65688,00.html ).
Dang, so why's herostratus worked up over people playing his music for free after his death? Maybe someone can clue me in on this.
Posted by: bi | May 18, 2005 9:29:56 AM
Petey, now you're writing fiction about Jack Lecou.
Posted by: bi | May 18, 2005 9:31:33 AM
Tomas: well said!
Posted by: bi | May 18, 2005 9:33:12 AM
Cheap CD burning and MP3 technology have actually given me an incentive to buy songs online at a buck a pop that I then put into mixes to play at home and in my car. Assuming that artists are getting their fair share of that revenue stream, do you want to take that away from them, Petey?
Posted by: Donny | May 18, 2005 9:40:44 AM
I work as a freelance writer, editor, and designer of roleplaying games, and unlike most folks here, I have actually seen my work pirated - routinely, in fact, on Usenet binaries newsgroups covering my field, and on file-sharing networks. I've also seen enough royalty and sales figures to know that it genuinely isn't affecting my bottom line at all, and this in a market where sales of a few thousand copies is all most of us can expect for any given release.
Nor is it obviously the case that the loss of exclusive control means the loss of all opportunities to make money. There are authorized editions, for starters - the right to say "this is the version endorsed by X", where X is someone the customer may care about. There are production values, and extras, and all kinds of stuff.
The social costs of the sort of thing the RIAA and MPAA want seem to me to be huge, requiring a very large, very intrusive apparatus both public and private all the time. Even if it were the case that piracy were hurting some creators' income seriously, I'd really want to weigh that against what happens when the police power is wielded so blatantly for technologically regressive corporate gain. When the losses turn out to be so small, if indeed they exist overall at all, it's a no brainer: legalize it, and penalize only fraudulent efforts to appear authorized or whatever.
Posted by: Bruce Baugh | May 18, 2005 9:46:57 AM
"Petey, now you're writing fiction about Jack Lecou."
In that case, I want my copyright protected.
Posted by: Petey | May 18, 2005 9:48:25 AM
Ah, the joys of an IP debate with Petey. I had a lengthy one here that mirrors the current thread pretty well. You'll note his arguments are characterized by a complete lack of links to support his quoted evidence, a lack of responses to arguments questioning the numbers he cites, and an inevitable degeneration into personal attacks.
My personal favorite bit: our aggregate subjective appraisal of the quality of music today is invalid because we all listen to indie rock, which is a special case. Everything other genre is going to hell though, apparently.
Petey, I don't mean to dismiss your arguments completely. Certainly you make some good points and it's an issue worth considering carefully*. But it's very hard to have a conversation with someone who assumes that anyone who disagrees is lying about his or her true motivations.
* no doubt you will read this sentence as roughly equivalent to a suggestion that we thoughtfully weigh the pros and cons of harvesting infants for food
Posted by: tom | May 18, 2005 9:48:26 AM
Well, I don't really have a problem with paying for music, though I have become less and less enamored with the pricing model for CDs. (12 songs for the price of a new DVD - yeeha!) Luckily, Napster/iTunes/etc. have helped bring down the costs a bit with cheaper albums and the ability to buy individual songs. Not perfect in terms of selection, but a great start in the right direction. Hopefully, the music industry will get a clue and start doing more dynamic pricing of CDs.
I wouldn't be too worried about downloading of movies and TV shows. The file sizes are much larger and picture quality not as good, DVDs are priced a lot better than CDs, and you can always rent the DVDs for cheap. Video downloading's probably going to remain the domain of the tech-geek for the time being.
Posted by: Timothy | May 18, 2005 9:50:24 AM
There's a really strong correlation between the advent of the ability to share music easily over the Internet and sales of RIAA dropping. The other factors that have been cited of course can have a negative impact on sales, but none of them explains the timing, which is pretty well correlated with, hmm. Napster. The cell phone craze is mostly post 9/11, iirc. iPods, too.
Are you really compared to claim that Napster led to positive sales but everything else combined to make it just *look* like it was a negative effect that perfectly coincided with Napster's prominence?
Most of the other rationalizations are simply rationalizations. (Good lord, I'm in partial agreement with Petey.)
That said, I have noticed a tendency of my peers to download only crap and purchase good music. The Britney Spears single-of-the-moment? Downloaded. A new band with a great sound? Maybe one track comes via download, but the album gets purchased. So I think that it's at least plausible that a) record sales are down and b) smaller artists are getting noticed are not mutually exclusive concepts.
I also am not in favor of taxing everyone more so some kids can download some free pop songs.
Posted by: Cala | May 18, 2005 9:55:21 AM
Here is a test:
Pick your favorite artists in the whole world:
Springsteen
Michaelangelo
Van Gogh
Nirvana
Whatever list you want that's honest.
Ask yourself, would these artists have practiced their art if there no chance of getting insanely rich off of it? I bet the answer is yes.
So the question is not whether Napster has/will de-incentivize the truly great artists. Because it hasn't/won't. Yes it will de-incentivize the major labels and their mass-production of false idols (Boy bands, Britney, Ashlee Simpson, Limp Bizkit, whatever the frig is next).
Any great loss? To the RIAA members, yes -- hence the stink. To the public and large, no.
Posted by: J Wilson | May 18, 2005 9:59:43 AM
And of course there's this argument:
I bought Billy Joel's "The Stranger" on tape cassette. When that wore out, I bought it again on CD. Since I had already paid for the material, in all rights I should have been able to re-purchase the CD for the cost of the CD media only (plus a minimal handling charge). Let's say $3.
Where was the RIAA in leading the charge against this particular brand of piracy? "Piracy" here meaning the repeated unfair removal of funds from its customers' pockets.
Posted by: J Wilson | May 18, 2005 10:08:51 AM
> and then with the introduction of mass digital
> reproduction over the internet, suddenly sales
> fall off a cliff.
Right. And all during the 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s what else was going on? Well, the introduction of mass playback technology into the home. In 1940 what percentage of US homes had any sort of high-fidelity playback device? 10%? In the 50s? By 1990, penetration of high fidelity playback in the home finally reached 100% with the arrival of the cheap CD boom box - meaning there was no longer going to be automatic growth in purchase of recorded music since there was no growth in underlying playback devices.
Anything else happen? Oh yeah, the Baby Boom starts aging and the decline in growth of the 12-22 segement. I sure don't buy as much music as I did when I was 22.
Did the Internet have anything to do with it? Perhaps people were finally able to start communicating outside industry-controlled channels and realized just how badly the big recording companies and the RIAA were ripping them off.
No, it MUST have been piracy.
Cranky
Posted by: Cranky Observer | May 18, 2005 10:11:09 AM
Pete:
There seems to be a hangup on the empirical question here. Seems like we should be able to settle this with a few links. If you look at serious econometric studies, as opposed to just inferring causation from correlations, the evidence is a little mixed but the independent ones seem to confirm the absence of a negative effect:
http://www.indiemusician.com/2005/04/p2p_application.html
http://news.com.com/2100-1027_3-5181562.html
http://news.com.com/2100-1023-898813.html
Maybe researchers from UNC and Harvard have "no intellectual honesty," but it's hard to imagine their incentive for fabricating the result.
Posted by: Julian | May 18, 2005 10:23:38 AM
Cala, music sales were off well before file-sharing caught on.
Posted by: Bruce Baugh | May 18, 2005 11:04:54 AM
> Cala, music sales were off well before file-sharing
> caught on.
In fact, we have absolutely no idea what music sales were before the record store industry went to bar-coded POS terminals (around 1990 IIRC) and Amazon.com came on the scene. What sales figures were available were based on statistical sampling, and both the sampling process and the reporting of the figures was controlled by ...... the big record companies. Who had all kinds of incentives not to publish actual figures.
In every autobiography I have ever read of a big-time musician or author, when they get to where they are big enough they can insist an independent auditor be sent in to their publisher and the RIAA to verify royalty payments suddenly millions (in may cases 10s of millions) of dollars of "mistakes" are suddenly uncovered. Oddly enough never in the author's favor ;-(
Cranky
Posted by: Cranky Observer | May 18, 2005 11:27:19 AM
i would like to just briefly thank the people putting up links for articles. Just read them and they are really fascinating. If anyone knows some good articles on P2P music, copyrights and the music industry i would love some links or names for Jstor, ingenta ect.
God, blogs are useful :)
Posted by: Tomas | May 18, 2005 11:30:20 AM
Forgive me if I’ve missed something, but my skimming of the comments indicates that the debate is the same old same old, such as whether piracy hurts sales, and that there is no debate over the preposterously Soviet alternative endorsed by MY: “Congress must legislate public machinery that: 1) observes music use without compromising listeners' privacy and 2) bureaucratically steers a public royalty fund to creators according to how much their work is listened to.”
As for 1), a hugely intrusive mechanism would be required. We’re supposed to monitor, what?, radio use, computer use, file sharing, etc., etc., etc. Ack. As for 2), does anyone really think this would happen? More likely, there would be grants, all run by the same artsy shmartsy louts who run modern art museums in this country, and the worst sort of drivel would get funded. More generally, (a) this sort of centralized funds distribution reeks of the Soviet economics of the 1930s, and (b) in practice it would be hideously under-funded bec/ Congress wouldn’t allocate much money to funding a bunch of 20-something fun but irresponsible musicians. Inevitably a huge grey market would spring up.
Posted by: ostap | May 18, 2005 11:57:39 AM
Quite true, Cranky. I'll revise: by the data the RIAA uses to make the claim that file sharing is hurting it, file sharing isn't the cause of its hurting, because that was already underway.
Posted by: Bruce Baugh | May 18, 2005 12:01:40 PM
Thanks ostap, for providing yet another example of the argumentative technique known as Reductio Ad Sovietum, half-brother of the infamous Reductio Ad Hitlerum. Take some proposal, find some spurious link with the USSR, and use that to dismiss the proposal.
Personally, I'm in favour of putting music into libraries so that cash-strapped folks can borrow and listen to their favourite music for free.
Posted by: bi | May 18, 2005 12:11:37 PM
bi - "spurious"? Nonsense. Spot on. Look it up.
Posted by: ostap | May 18, 2005 12:32:25 PM
"What we need for music is analogous: a reasonably good assessment of how much play a given recording gets and a mechanism to steer public funds mostly to the ones people are listening to a lot."
Your tax dollar at work: paying Britney Spears. Yeah, that's what we need, all right.
Posted by: liver | May 18, 2005 12:41:13 PM
Look up what? "Soviet"? I don't see a definition of "Soviet" that says "handy trope which you use to wallop policies you don't like".
Nonsense? Spot-on? Well, it's spot-on nonsense.
Oh well, the Soviets also deposed their horrible Czar during the Russian Revolution, so obviously deposing horrible Czars is OMG 3V1L 3V1L 3V1L!!!!11111111
Posted by: bi | May 18, 2005 12:42:04 PM
bi, you twit. This proposal would be nothing more than a huge input-output table, with all the attendant difficulties. 1st, are you going to measure tons of output - well, you'll get really big nails. Are you going to measure numbers of nails - well, you'll get lots of tiny nails. What do you reward? Downloads? Hours of listening? Clicked links? Well, that's what you'll get. 2nd, it would necessarily be backward looking. Last year's output would get paid this year. Swiftly changing demands would be ignored, leading to gluts and shortages out the wazoo.
1930s Soviet economics. Period.
Posted by: ostap | May 18, 2005 12:51:39 PM
Yeah, first you equate music with nails, then you equate any form of government control with 0MGZ T3H S0V13TZ R 33VIL!!!!1111
Gluts and shortages? What are you smoking? This is _music_, not bread, not fish, not nails. Fish can't be easily copied; music can. Get that through your thick skull will you?
Perhaps Kleiman's proposal is complete batsh*t, but I want to see a rebuttal of it without the words "Soviet", "Stalin", "Communist", etc.
Posted by: bi | May 18, 2005 1:05:22 PM
J. Wilson: Perhaps the genius of Michaelangelo would have persisted without a rich patron, but it's hard to say how he would have afforded the marble.
Bruce: fair enough. There's a ton of data to wade through; it just seems to strange that there would be no perceptible effect on sales.
Or maybe not; I know people with $10K worth of songs on their iPod, and I suspect that they wouldn't have purchased all of those songs on their own. The songs just wouldn't be had -- most of them aren't worth paying for.
Lots of things are based on input-output that aren't Soviet; whether ostap wants to call it communist or not is really neither here nor there. It's still bad policy to prop up a pop music industry that (regardless of the impact of file-sharing) is quicker to blame than to adapt.
Posted by: Cala | May 18, 2005 1:06:43 PM
bi - no lessons whatsoever from the Soviet Union are allowed? Wow. Interesting display of purposeful memory erasure you've got going on there.
Music isn't fish. No! Really? You don't say! Golly, could have fooled me! So the laws of economics don't apply to music? Wow again.
Posted by: ostap | May 18, 2005 1:15:15 PM
FWIW, Canada collects a levy on blank CDRs that is then distributed to artists based upon album sales and airplay. There's a FAQ about it here.
O'Hare's proposal would presumably encompass all or most of the music industry's funding; Canada's system clearly doesn't do that. But it's equally obvious that it is possible to establish a system that dishes out payment at least somewhat fairly.
Posted by: tom | May 18, 2005 1:18:01 PM
ostap, read carefully again what I said about music, then tell me about the laws of economics.
Posted by: bi | May 18, 2005 1:19:17 PM
ostap, which law of economics are you refering to? Could you be specific?
Posted by: Tomas | May 18, 2005 1:20:05 PM
I think there's a "law of economics" that says that when someone makes a backup copy of a piece of music, the original copy will magically erase itself.
Maybe it's Scott Adams^W^WAdam Smith's "invisible hand" that's doing the erasing. Or something.
Posted by: bi | May 18, 2005 1:22:59 PM
Cala:
Not to nitpick, but:
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20050221/davidpisello.html
"Indeed, David was carved from a single block of marble discarded for an imperfection by two other sculptors, Agostino di Duccio and Antonio Rossellino."
The point is that transcendent art finds a way (whether it be through a single wealthy patron, or via broad grass roots appreciation). Whereas poseur art requires the marketing power of major labels, and that marketing power requires funds to feed it. Those funds are what is threatened by copying -- not the art of great artists.
In fact, as someone already pointed out, those artists and that art is greatly aided by the exposure provided by downloading, copying, sharing.
I'm only saying lets not lump together the interests of the labels with the interests of the artists that you personally love.
Posted by: J Wilson | May 18, 2005 1:32:28 PM
say I buy a copy of a CD, burn a duplicate....
The rest of your little story is unnecessary as merely making a copy is infringement. Downstream licensing. Look on your CDs, I bet all of them somewhere say that any and all duplication is prohibited.
Posted by: Steve | May 18, 2005 1:57:49 PM
J. Wilson --
"And of course there's this argument:
I bought Billy Joel's "The Stranger" on tape cassette. When that wore out, I bought it again on CD. Since I had already paid for the material, in all rights I should have been able to re-purchase the CD for the cost of the CD media only (plus a minimal handling charge). Let's say $3.
Where was the RIAA in leading the charge against this particular brand of piracy? "Piracy" here meaning the repeated unfair removal of funds from its customers' pockets."
This is a joke, right? The point of intellectual property is precisely that you didn't "buy the material."
Posted by: SqueakyRat | May 18, 2005 3:45:06 PM
Petey:
It has been pointed out to you repeatedly that,
- The "music sales went down because of Napster" argument is an "after, therefore because of" fallacy.
- There are a number of other phenomena which correlate with the decline in record sales and have plausible causal relationships.
- Independent empirical studies show, if anything, a slightly positive correlation between file sharing and music sales.
- Only a handful of musicians receive any income from record sales anyway. They benefit from their relationship with the studios only inasmuch as shelf space and radio time advertises their work to potential customers of their real product: live concerts.
Don't bother replying unless you can actually address any of these points in a rational manner.
Posted by: Jack Lecou | May 18, 2005 3:45:13 PM
J. Caesar:
You don't have any *RIGHT* to listen to other people's music.
You don't have an inherent right to your intellectual property. It is a misunderstanding, and an arrogance. An arrogance because what you consider your intellectual property is a mental construct, like a car is not, and is invested with so much unacknowledged intellectual property of others, that your contribution is the minority. From the musical notation to the style of the music, if it weren’t derivative of the past, it wouldn’t resonate with your audience. Listen to traditional music from India or Japan; if unfamiliar, it makes little sense. Some advertisers use music that is so similar in all but the sequence of notes that it is instantly recognizable as being slavishly imitative of some distinctive band. But it does not transgress copyright laws because it doesn’t meet arbitrary criteria for being “too close” to another’s work. On the other hand, a song such as George Harrison’s My Sweet Lord is judged the same, by copyright courts, as the Chiffons He’s So Fine, written by Ronald Mack. Do you really think Harrison wouldn’t have written his song if he hadn’t heard the Chiffons’? Or were both a product of a common musical heritage? And do you find no added pleasure in Harrison’s work, that you would suppress it, as current copyright law would, if Harrison hadn’t ostensibly flouted copyright law by producing it without attribution to Mack? This highlights one of the many differences between intellectual “property” and real property. It is not a matter of provenance, but reference. We can’t even agree if the thing, My Sweet Lord is the same as the thing He’s So Fine. Intellectual property is not property. Intellectual heritage is our common patrimony and our current confiscatory copyright regime is throttling its progress, particularly in the arts and software industries. But this is contrary to the Constitution:
Article I, Section 8: To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.
Despite the recent Supreme Court ruling permitting Congress to make copyrights of well over a century in some cases, clearly not “limited” in any reasonable sense, including intent of the framers. But also our current copyright laws transgress the “promoting” clause when the opposite is happening. This involves our cultural and scientific heritage. Congress, in thrall to businessmen who assure them there is more money (for campaign donations) if they can hold copyrights virtually in perpetuity, have made laws that sensible people want to fight for moral reasons. Our nation, and art and science would be better off with shorter copyright terms.
And by what right does the RIAA have to examine the files on my computer and haul me into court for theft because I have downloaded files there? Now I am guilty until proven innocent? How do they know these files aren’t legally there? There is no practical way to stop people from file swapping as you will see when the Grokster case is decided by the Supreme Court. Want to support an artist? Go to a concert. Only the richest artists, and the record industry make any money off of album sales.
Posted by: epistemology | May 18, 2005 3:47:17 PM
J. Wilson: Nice nitpick, though the broader point about the necessity of some kind of patronage system still stands. Still, the argument that 'great artists will produce great works even if they receive no compensation, so it doesn't matter if I steal their work' smacks of after the fact justification to me, and doesn't strike me as all that persuasive, given the amount of time/argument dedicated to showing that file-sharing helps artists.
I am suspicious of an argument whose premises seem to boil down to 'The RIAA is corrupt, and it doesn't harm the artists, so it doesn't matter if I stick it to them'. I see the larger question as about intellectual property, whether it should exist, etc, not a strict utilitarian question.
But the RIAA is really taking the wrong tactic in fighting this; even if they eventually get the courts to stop it, as epistemology (among others) points out, it's practically unenforceable. Having read more about it, I'd be really curious if people could answer some questions I've had:
1) How are sales calculated? Several of the articles I've glanced through count shipping an album to a store as a sale; if a record company improves its inventory control (as, say, might be totally plausible with advances in computers/tracking), a large part of the loss attributed to Napster et al. A loss of 5% of sales as calculated as initial ship-outs could be due to better inventory control and spun however politically convenient.
2) Was there an industry shakeup that would lead RIAA execs to look to Napster et al. as a scapegoat? An exec forced to explain slacking sales would surely seize upon such a scapegoat; especially since data from the past couple of years shows that the slide in retail music is decreasing (and I would guess that file sharing has gone up.)
Posted by: Cala | May 18, 2005 4:23:22 PM
Squeaky:
"The point of intellectual property is precisely that you didn't "buy the material""
True. I misstated. I meant "licensed the right to listen to the software on the media". If I am still wrong on that point, then I really am confused.
Posted by: J Wilson | May 18, 2005 5:15:45 PM
Cala:
"though the broader point about the necessity of some kind of patronage system still stands."
I agree. I have in fact gone out and purchased Springsteens latest outright, to support the artist. I would prefer to click on a PayPal button that deposited funds directly into his account, and bypass the RIAA and its members. (My own patronage system)
"Still, the argument that 'great artists will produce great works even if they receive no compensation, so it doesn't matter if I steal their work' smacks of after the fact justification to me, and doesn't strike me as all that persuasive"
Not "no compensation" -- as many have pointed out they will still receive signficant compensation from performances, dwindling record sales (and PayPal buttons).
Sure, its utopian but is any worse than the idea in Matt's original post?
Posted by: J Wilson | May 18, 2005 5:24:05 PM
Cala:
1) This a big problem. RIAA has a story they want to sell, and they're willing to play accounting tricks to do so. Clearly the shipped-to numbers are virtually meaningless and we should be looking at the actual POS numbers, but its virtually impossible to get a complete picture from Soundscan et al. (who can't afford to offend their biggest customers).
2) This might be part of it, but I think there are a whole host of things at play:
- Industry conservatism: file sharing is a disruptive technology, and this industry isn't really very adept at embracing change. They're reacting the same way they did to radio, cassette recorders, store listening booths, etc.
- The perennial IP rights holder's wet dream of extracting windfall revenue from all the free riders. They think if they can just put enough encryption schemes and DMCA type laws in place, their sales will jump 200%. Of course the more likely outcome from such success is that their revenues remain essentially unchanged while free riders are cut out completely -- for a large net social loss.
- The interests of RIAA are not synonymous with the best business strategy for the industry: I doubt they'd be the first lobbying organization to justify huge fees by cooking up an imaginary threat.
All of these are consistent with the observation that the industry might be fighting file sharing *despite* a neutral or positive effect.
Posted by: Jack Lecou | May 18, 2005 5:29:01 PM
By 1990, penetration of high fidelity playback in the home finally reached 100% with the arrival of the cheap CD boom box - meaning there was no longer going to be automatic growth in purchase of recorded music since there was no growth in underlying playback devices.
Anything else happen? Oh yeah, the Baby Boom starts aging and the decline in growth of the 12-22 segement. I sure don't buy as much music as I did when I was 22.
Did the Internet have anything to do with it? Perhaps people were finally able to start communicating outside industry-controlled channels and realized just how badly the big recording companies and the RIAA were ripping them off.
Don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but, there's also a lot of speculation, and more than a little evidence, that weakish music sales correlate with the advent of DVDs. It would appear that a lot of folks would just as soon through their limitied entertainment-purchase dollars at movies. Inevitably, that means less money for Kid Rock.
Posted by: P. B. Almeida | May 18, 2005 8:06:28 PM
Janis Ian is right; recording companies are notorious for the non-payment of artist royalties these days, and the prevailing conventional wisdom is that, well-represented superstars notwithstanding, recordings exist today, in financial terms, from the performer's perspective, as required PR vehicles for concert appearances.
In the music "industry" creative people (i.e. composers/songwriters) usually receive periodic "royalties" from the licensing organizations that represent them, such as ASCAP and BMI in the U.S.. Such fees are collected and paid out based on the results of surveys and the collection of funds by those agencies predicated on the number of performances, recordings, et al., of the "covered" material, and there is also a ranking system for the artists based on performance (repetitions) numbers and categories, a system I don't completely understand, but which operates in much in the same way Matthew has suggested could be implemented by government agencies.(ugh!) By all accounts, undereporting by these institutions is rampant, but the organizations do their best since their compensation is related to the "take."
The unfortunate people caught in the middle are performers who are at the mercy of the accounting divisions of the recording/video companies.
This year, someone won a Grammy for a "CD" that was sold online after having been recorded with pre-production funds that had been solicited online. Now there's an concept worth pursuing!
A recent questionnaire from the Recording Academy (NARAS) included a question regarding the imposition of a requirement that a minimum number of recordings would need to be sold in retail stores to qualify for Grammy contention (This was certainly unrelated to the threat such enterprises could pose to the industry-someone, I believe it was Scott McClellan, has attested to this fact).
Posted by: Murnien | May 19, 2005 12:42:02 AM
As a musician, this sounds retarded to me. The last thing I want to do is sit back and wait for my government check..
All this RIAA talk is nonsense. A larger portion of a musician's profit (the ones that eventually make it) comes from live shows anyway.
Posted by: Adrock | May 19, 2005 12:59:29 PM
OK, I just got reminded of a related but different problem... sheet music is often "copyrighted", even if they were authored by composers who are long dead. ( http://fzort.org/bi/soapbox-2005.html#20050520 )
Posted by: bi | May 19, 2005 3:49:06 PM
Jack Lecou,
"There are a number of other phenomena which correlate with the decline in record sales and have plausible causal relationships."
If you go over to a right wing site, you'll find lots of theories of other phenomena besides human generated carbon emissions that have a "plausible causal relationship" with the record global rise in temperatures.
If you have no intellectual honesty, you can come up with quite ridiculous "plausible" explanations. And you have no intellectual honesty.
You don't like the record companies. You do like piracy. So you'll twist the facts horribly out of their natural shape to fit your preferred outcome.
Your are not interested in determining whether or not piracy is responsible for the drop in sales. Your brief is for justifying piracy - facts be damned.
Posted by: Petey | May 19, 2005 6:29:25 PM
You are the one who seems quite eager to leap to conclusions contrary to the evidence.
So far you have presented nothing but the fallacious assertion that because one set of numbers seems to fall while the other rises, one is obviously causing the other. Do you understand what "correlation is not causation" means, and how it applies here?
On the other hand:
* I have pointed out that there are several other columns of numbers which are at least as strongly correlated with music sales. (The rise in DVD sales alone is more than enough to explain the drop in CD sales over the period.)
* I have linked to actual empirical analysis strongly suggesting that the superficial link between downloads and sales is just that, superficial.
* I'll further point out that music sales have rebounded lately, while file sharing continues to rise unchecked. This would seem to break even the weak correlation observed in previous years.
Try again. Besides your intuition, what evidence do you actually have that file sharing is harming music sales?
PS: The analogy with global warming is utterly false. In that case we have, (1) a rigourous, scientifically established causal link: we know from independent chemistry and physics experiment that certain gases have a greenhouse effect. And (2) detailed statistical analyses which actually control for other correlated variables and random fluctuation. Without the former, any correlation the latter found would be inconclusive. So far, you have presented neither type of evidence (which is unsurprising: if RIAA hasn't found it by now, it probably doesn't exist).
Posted by: Jack Lecou | May 19, 2005 10:30:04 PM
Also: Challenges made by global warming skeptics are refuted with actual factual scientific arguments, not retreat to a logical fallacy and blind accusations of "intellectually dishonesty". In fact, I should point out that it's not reasonable to accuse someone of intellectual dishonesty until one has actually presented them with a logical argument.
Posted by: Jack Lecou | May 19, 2005 10:40:41 PM
"I'll further point out that music sales have rebounded lately, while file sharing continues to rise unchecked. This would seem to break even the weak correlation observed in previous years."
Of course, the recent rebound coincided almost perfectly with the widespread publicity of the RIAA's lawsuits. And sales are still well below the late 90's pre-Napster peak.
But like I said, Jack, you're not interested in honestly following what the data shows. You just want to come up with theoretically "plausible" ways to explain the data away.
And, of course, if Buddy Holly were to descend from the heavens and tell you in the voice of ultimate authority that the obviously correct explanation was indeed correct, it wouldn't matter one whit to you. You'd just shift to some other defense of piracy. You like piracy. You don't like the music industry. The facts are secondary to you.
Posted by: Petey | May 19, 2005 10:50:17 PM
Actually, I think I'd just ask Buddy Holly for some hard evidence. Maybe he wouldn't be so evasive.
Let's just try this one question at a time:
(1) Do you believe that file sharing is the *sole* cause of the decline in music sales 1999-2003? Or do you think that other factors, for example the economic slump, may be responsible for part of the effect as well?
Posted by: Jack Lecou | May 19, 2005 11:09:38 PM
"The analogy with global warming is utterly false."
Not at all.
Do we know the Earth is dramatically warming due to human carbon emissions? No. We really don't. All we know is that that is by far the most likely explanation for the data. But the fact that we don't know, and the fact that other theoretically plausible explanations exist gives shelter to intellectually dishonest folks who are only interested in promoting their preferred outcome.
We don't know that the dramatic music sales dropoff has been caused by piracy. All we know is that that is by far the most likely explanation for the data. And that less than 100% certainty gives shelter to intellectually dishonest folks like you who are only interested in promoting their preferred outcome.
Posted by: Petey | May 19, 2005 11:13:33 PM
Still waiting.
Posted by: Jack Lecou | May 19, 2005 11:18:44 PM
"Do you believe that file sharing is the *sole* cause of the decline in music sales 1999-2003? Or do you think that other factors, for example the economic slump, may be responsible for part of the effect as well?"
How 'bout this wording:
While we live in a world with many variables and many moving parts, I believe that attempts to explain the recent decline in music sales without looking to file sharing as the overwhelmingly central cause are pure sophistry.
Posted by: Petey | May 19, 2005 11:22:01 PM
"Still waiting."
I'm still waiting for anything other than sophistry from you.
Posted by: Petey | May 19, 2005 11:23:56 PM
Why?
Posted by: Jack Lecou | May 19, 2005 11:27:28 PM
Wow Petey, intellectual dishonesty and failure to engage arguments are just so irritating! No wonder Democrats can't win elections, what with all the stupid hippies dogmatically insisting that things are "obvious" and don't need to actually be argued for! Pathetic.
Posted by: Barbar | May 19, 2005 11:28:12 PM
And that was sarcasm about the elections by the way.
Posted by: Barbar | May 19, 2005 11:29:19 PM
While we live in a world with many variables and many moving parts, I believe that attempts to explain the recent decline in music sales without looking to file sharing as the overwhelmingly central cause are pure sophistry.
Who cares what you believe? I personally find it hard to believe you give a damn about sophistry when you've been completely unable to even muster an argument in your defense beyond "Well duh I'm right, your arguments are just sophistry!"
Posted by: Barbar | May 19, 2005 11:31:50 PM
I'll further point out that music sales have rebounded lately, while file sharing continues to rise unchecked. This would seem to break even the weak correlation observed in previous years.
Evidence that file sharing continues to rise, apparently undeterred by RIAA lawsuits, and confounding arguments of a link to music sales.
Posted by: Jack Lecou | May 19, 2005 11:35:15 PM
"Who cares what you believe?"
I was asked what I believed, asshat.
Posted by: Petey | May 19, 2005 11:41:47 PM
(2) Koleman Strumpf:
Over the period 1999 to 2003, DVD prices fell by 25% and the price of players fell in the US from over $1,000 to almost nothing. At the same time, CD prices went up by 10%. Combined DVD and VHS tape sales went up by 500m, while CD sales fell by 200m, so a possible explanation is that people were spending on DVDs instead of CDs.
Assuming this data is correct, what reason do you have to believe that increased competition from DVDs is not the overwhelmingly central cause?
Posted by: Jack Lecou | May 19, 2005 11:45:48 PM
Jack Lecou,
My turn to ask you a question:
If you were convinced that the drop in sales was solely caused by piracy, would that suddenly make you anti-piracy?
Posted by: Petey | May 19, 2005 11:51:14 PM
No. I think I would also have to be convinced that this had actually translated into economic harm to musicians.
Posted by: Jack Lecou | May 19, 2005 11:56:50 PM
"Assuming this data is correct, what reason do you have to believe that increased competition from DVDs is not the overwhelmingly central cause?"
Like I said before, you just keep throwing one theoretically possible but obviously untrue theory after another up against the wall. Hence, my Republicans on global warming accusation. Hence my accusation of sophistry.
You are not interested in figuring out what caused the drop. You are only interested in finding a theoretically plausible non-piracy explanation. Would you dispute that?
Posted by: Petey | May 19, 2005 11:58:50 PM
"No. I think I would also have to be convinced that this had actually translated into economic harm to musicians."
How much harm? What percentage of musicians would have to be harmed?
Posted by: Petey | May 20, 2005 12:01:51 AM
Could you explain why it is "obviously untrue"? It's not so obvious to me.
I am interested in finding *all* the plausible explanations. I probably don't have the data to figure out what the actual combination of causes is, but I am honestly interested in finding out.
Posted by: Jack Lecou | May 20, 2005 12:04:40 AM
Losses sufficient to balance the welfare gain made by the people who listened to the music.
Posted by: Jack Lecou | May 20, 2005 12:05:51 AM
"Losses sufficient to balance the welfare gain made by the people who listened to the music."
If we were to legalize furniture theft, there would be significant losses in the furniture industry, but lots of folks would have a welfare gain in the form of a new sofa. However, the problem would be... (I'm assuming I don't have to spell this one out.)
The funniest sophistical explanation I've seen for the drop in sales is that post '98 the industry issued dramatically fewer CD's. Umm... (I'm hoping I don't have to spell this one out either.)
-----
"I am interested in finding *all* the plausible explanations. I probably don't have the data to figure out what the actual combination of causes is..."
Well, we're back to global warming land. One explanation makes significantly more sense with the available data than the others.
"...but I am honestly interested in finding out."
Well, then, stop trying to come up with *all* the plausible explanations, and look at which one honestly makes the most sense.
The RIAA is scummy. The suits in all the content creation industries are somewhat disagreeable, but the suits in the music industry are universally acknowledged as the worst. Lots of musicians get a lousy deal from the labels. Fine. I've got no argument with any of that. But when you start letting that color your explanations for the sales decline, then you become intellectually dishonest.
Posted by: Petey | May 20, 2005 12:31:24 AM
If we legalized furniture theft, the welfare gain made by a thief would always be cancelled out by the loss incurred on the victim.
In the case of music, the "theft" does not result in a corresponding loss. A socially ideal outcome is any one where (a) the musician is compensated enough to provide his incentive to produce, (b) everyone who wants to listen to music can.
To illustrate:
Suppose I record an album. Selling 50 copies will be enough to induce me to continue producing music.
Universe A: I sell 100 copies.
Universe B: I sell 100 copies; 100,000 people download my music off the internet.
All else being equal, Universe B is clearly the superior choice from a policy perspective. In fact, even a Universe C, where I sell only 51 copies and a 100,000 copies are downloaded, is probably still much better than Universe A.
Posted by: Jack Lecou | May 20, 2005 12:59:48 AM
Well, then, stop trying to come up with *all* the plausible explanations, and look at which one honestly makes the most sense.
From where I sit, the one you are thinking of does *not* make the most sense. Honestly.
Posted by: Jack Lecou | May 20, 2005 1:36:10 AM
The funniest sophistical explanation I've seen for the drop in sales is that post '98 the industry issued dramatically fewer CD's.
I think you misunderstood the argument then. There are two things you might have heard:
(1) Part of the drop in sales is attributable to the fact that labels were producing fewer new releases: one can hardly expect sales to increase if you are providing fewer choices to customers. AFAIK, RIAA stopped releasing this data in 2000, but new releases may have been as much as 30% lower that year than in 1999.
(2) The "sales" numbers RIAA generally publishes are "manufacturer's unit shipments". That sounds reasonable, until you consider the fact that a large number of CDs shipped to stores may never be sold. At least part of the drop in "sales" in recent years is probably due to better inventory management and fewer overshipments.
Neither one of those points is at all sophistic...
Posted by: Jack Lecou | May 20, 2005 2:11:02 AM
Man, I'm flabbergasted that _after_ _all_ _this_ _time_, people still try to strike an analogy between music and bread, fish, nails, furniture, or some other material goods.
Let me get this clear: THE MUSIC CD IS NOT THE MUSIC, AND THE MAP IS NOT THE TERRITORY. EAT THAT, YOU NUMBSKULLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When you buy music, you normally buy it in a CD, but it's not the physical CD object that you want, it's the little zeros and ones inside. Take away the zeros and ones and leave the CD, and you're just left with a (relatively) worthless disk. Take away the CD, but leave the zeros and ones (but put them in some other medium, e.g. a hard disk), and you still have the same value on your hands.
To complicate matters, there's sheet music, which has its own value. And merely making a _performance_ from a piece of sheet music produces yet another copyrightable item (the process of performing isn't exactly "creative", but it requires skill). Things are much more complex than those "omgz music is just like fish!" folks make it out to be.
Posted by: bi | May 21, 2005 4:37:21 AM