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The Two Blogospheres

One interesting subject I hadn't really given much thought to until I got a question about it at the NAHJ panel in Texas is the contrasting cultural norms of the liberal and conservative (or, perhaps more accurately, the hawkish and dovish) blogospheres. There are a lot of aspects of this and, interestingly, I think we're close enough to the origins that we can identify specific causes:

  • Liberal sites are more oriented toward comments and community-building than are conservative ones. This seems to have a twofold origin, one being that Atrios enabled comments early on and Glenn Reynolds never did. Then, Markos pioneered the Scoop/community format. Now it's considered bad form on the left to not have a comments section.
  • Semi-paradoxically, the liberal blogosphere is considerably more elitist than is the conservosphere. There's much less self-conscious promotion of small sites by the authors of bigger ones. The origin here, I think, is the difference between Andrew Sullivan (who was much more clearly on the right at the time) and Josh Marshall in the early days. Andrew was a real blog enthusiast/evangelist and Josh wasn't. Since both of them are/were "real" journalists their practices became normative of what a serious enterprise would be like, with Sullivan-emulators seeing promotion of the blogosphere per se as part of their mission while Marshall-emulators sought to stay aloof from the rabble. Then the dawn of dKos and other community-oriented sites have wound up provided an alternative mechanism of inclusion for liberal bloggers and readers.
  • I'm less certain that this is really true, but I think you see different kinds of viciousness from the left and the right. Your rightwingers are much more likely to say something substantively scummy about someone else -- flinging around casual accusations of treason and so forth. Your leftwingers, by contrast, are much more likely to engage in workaday meanness -- name-calling and so forth. This stems, I think, from the stylistic dichotomy between Atrios and Instapundit. Glenn's a really master of the artfully worded slander -- "they're not anti-war, they're on the other side" and so forth -- while Duncan has a much blunter approach -- "InstaHack," etc.
There are other differences, of course, that are more tied to macro-level differences in the worldview of the prosperous, well-educated branch of American conservatism and the prosperous, well-educated branch of American liberalism, but those three are all sociological quirks that I think have fairly micro-level origins that have no become widely entrenched.

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» Daily linklets 24th June from Simon World
Burma's influence on George Orwell. Ironic given the Orwellian state Burma has become. Gordon asks if China is turning into an Orwellian nation? Why you should treat Wikipedia with caution. The Chinese foreign takeover bandwagon continues. The paralle... [Read More]

Tracked on Jun 23, 2005 10:40:06 PM

» Daily linklets 24th June from Simon World
Burma's influence on George Orwell. Ironic given the Orwellian state Burma has become. Gordon asks if China is turning into an Orwellian nation? Why you should treat Wikipedia with caution. The Chinese foreign takeover bandwagon continues. The paralle... [Read More]

Tracked on Jun 23, 2005 10:46:40 PM

» Daily linklets 24th June from Simon World
Burma's influence on George Orwell. Ironic given the Orwellian state Burma has become. Gordon asks if China is turning into an Orwellian nation? Why you should treat Wikipedia with caution. The Chinese foreign takeover bandwagon continues. The paralle... [Read More]

Tracked on Jun 23, 2005 10:48:28 PM

» Contrasting cultural norms of Liberals and conservatives. from BlogSpy.NET
We found this blog entry very interesting so we've added a Trackback to it on our site. [Read More]

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» links for 2005-06-25 from Pop Philosophy
My Very First HughHewitt.com link I'm the link titled "Stylish Since This Morning" (don't ask) (tags: internet me blogging politics) Matthew Yglesias: The Two Blogospheres thoughts on the left and right blogospheres (tags: politics blogging)... [Read More]

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» Blogosphere Analysis (Vital Information for Bloggers) from tdaxp
"Aristocratic Right Wing Blogosphere Stagnating," by Chris Bowers, MyDD, 12 June 2005, http://www.mydd.com/story/2005/6/12/17357/3049. Remember when I said Chris Bowers is a genius? He proves it again. If you have a blog, read this As I have a... [Read More]

Tracked on Jun 25, 2005 12:00:32 AM

Comments

There's the seperate issue that there are two left-leaning blogosphere: the "kososphere", dominated by Kos, atrios, and mydd, and the "wonkosphere", dominated by ... well ... you, now TPMcafe, Brad DeLong, Ezra Klein, etc. This causes an intresting dynamic within the left-leaning blogosphere.

I'm not sure your third point about differences in viciousness holds true. It may also be a continuation of the view that the Right views the Left as permissive amoral relativists, while the Left views the Right as some combination of cruel, ignorant, and in teh current days, oblivious to factual information.

Now if we could just figure out how to get the left-leaning blogs to pay more attention to allying with culturally conservative poor people than their well-educated pseudo-libertarian poker buddies...

Posted by: Nick Beaudrot | Jun 23, 2005 3:00:29 PM

'semi-paradoxically, the liberal blogosphere is considerably more elitist than is the conservosphere.'

does not follow from

'There's much less self-conscious promotion of small sites by the authors of bigger ones.'

Posted by: David Weman | Jun 23, 2005 3:16:02 PM

It may also be a continuation of the view that the Right views the Left as permissive amoral relativists, while the Left views the Right as some combination of cruel, ignorant, and in teh current days, oblivious to factual information.


Well, that and the daily outrages.

I know I enjoyed the hell out of being nasty to Eli Lake when used to pop in around here. Where else could you bitch out one of their mandarins? It's cathartic :)

Posted by: Ed Marshall | Jun 23, 2005 3:16:55 PM

'semi-paradoxically, the liberal blogosphere is considerably more elitist than is the conservosphere.'

does not follow from

'There's much less self-conscious promotion of small sites by the authors of bigger ones.'

The theory that liberal bloggers, specifically Black and Moulitsas, emulated Marshall strikes me as clearly wrong, even a little odd.

Posted by: David Weman | Jun 23, 2005 3:18:12 PM

I think you generally are wrong, or strongly overstate the importance of emulation of early big names. The differences reflect different mindsets and different strategies between the blogospheric right and left.

Posted by: David Weman | Jun 23, 2005 3:24:14 PM

"(or, perhaps more accurately, the hawkish and dovish)"

No.

Posted by: David Weman | Jun 23, 2005 3:25:41 PM

But what do I know?

Btw, may I ask why you post this here and not at tpmcafe?

Posted by: David Weman | Jun 23, 2005 3:27:48 PM

Well, there are two style, so there must be an explanation for these two styles. But for some reason, the genealogic explanations seem "un-bloggesque" to me.

Can't really put my finger on it, too.

Posted by: yabonn | Jun 23, 2005 3:35:41 PM

Back in the day (anytime before 2003?), the right-half of the blogworld were huge blog-evangelizers. I think they explicitly saw blogs as a tool to defeat the liberal (sorry, Librul) media. Lefty bloggers, that existed, were nto as big blog-evangelicals. They promoted blogs, but not as fervently, as they weren't crusading against the oppressive bootheel of Dan Rather.

(The whole 'what liberal media' theme that Alterman and others promoted came later, and was never as strong)

This led to righties promoting small (ideologicaly compatible) sites. Various 'carnivals', etc. Kos tended to have 'guest bloggers' (Billmon, etc), and Marshall continued to pretend he was a journalist, not a blogger.

So some of the present day quirks of the left and the right are path dependent, as MattY suggests, but a good chunk of it is 'determined', or inevitable.

Could lefties have become blog evangelizers instead of the righties? I don't think it is possible. Looking internationally, blog are usually dominated by subordinate political viewpoints in a country -- libertarian Quebeckers, conservative Canadians, gay Iraqis (famously), etc. American Liberals couldn't advocate blogosphere until they began to lose in the regular-o-sphere.

Posted by: Irkam | Jun 23, 2005 4:55:06 PM

Does the fact that liberal bloggers are less likely to promote unknown bloggers bear a resemblance to liberal and conservative presumptions about intelligence vetting? Power Line, Michelle Malkin, and Instapundit seem to link to posts that simply must have just arrived in their mailboxes; Andrew Sullivan posts his mail. I think other big (liberal) bloggers tend to hold a more insular conversation that excludes, say, a Libertarian Girl, until that blogger earns a certain degree of credulity or says something unique.

Posted by: Kriston | Jun 24, 2005 12:50:58 PM

Re: bigger leftie blogs linking to smaller blogs less. I think this is somewhat moderated by the Scoop format. I don't read DKos often (I do read MyDD once in a while, though), but my impression is that fairly regularly they "promote" Diaries onto the front page, which seems to me to be the equivalent of linking to a small blog.

What is missing in this whole discussion, I think, is an analysis of the extent to which Diaries in Scoop-format blogs replace small independent blogs. Would lefties who now post Diaries just become proprietors of their own blogs absent Scoop? Are Diaries functionally equivalent to independent blogs (that is, do people post on them as much, etc.)? To me, the explanation to what Chris Bowers pointed out was the expansion of leftie blogs is not community/indepedence or hive/pack, but rather simply the tendency to use one technology format (Diaries) instead of another (independent blogs). Which is not really such a big deal.

I'll add that I thought Matthew's third point was really quite insightful.

Posted by: Al | Jun 24, 2005 2:20:06 PM

I agree with Kriston that the reason certain authoritarian bloggers link to the small fry is that they want to let those small fry say the most offensive & slanderous things for them, while always having the ability to deny having said it themselves. "Oh, when I linked to that article I was mostly in agreement with the part about the sky being blue, not the part where it said Howard Dean should be hung for treason." This is also why their commentary on the things they link to is rarely more specific than "indeed".

Also, I think it's important that everyone reading this comment thread condemn Al for his behavior regarding my goats.

Posted by: Hamilton Lovecraft | Jun 26, 2005 6:29:50 PM

I've noticed a couple of differences between the "two blogospheres" as well:

First, more germane to Matt's post, I've noticed that conservative sites that have comments enabled are much more likely to require registration before comments can be posted.

Second, the types of rhetoric used in argument are really different, though I'm not totally sure how to characterize the difference.

I've engaged the "enemy" a couple of times recently, so I'll just link to some examples. A case where a conservative blogger linked to me in order to make a point is here; a case where I got in a conservative blogger's face is here (in the Comments). I'll state up front that I think I lost my cool in different ways both times, but I still think that both examples are illustrative.

Cheers,

Chris

Posted by: Chris Patil | Jun 27, 2005 3:50:25 PM

H P Lovecraft wrote some of the most outrageous fiction. Any relation ? I missed the part about goats. (Yes. That was innuendo in the first sentence)

Posted by: opit | Jun 27, 2005 10:17:49 PM

I think you're overstating the extent to which dominant lefty blogs don't promote smaller sites. Marshall doesn't; and Kos promotes lesser-known writers by other means. But Atrios has always kept an extensive blogroll, and constantly links to posts from new bloggers I hadn't previously heard of. This behavior is influential and widely imitated.

Posted by: Patrick Nielsen Hayden | Jun 28, 2005 9:56:35 AM

>This behavior is influential and widely imitated.

I misread the last phrase as "widely irritating".

Posted by: anon | Jun 30, 2005 11:14:48 AM

My first exposure to the liberal blogosphere was something of a shock.

I discovered Brad DeLong's website a few months back, and was very intrigued. The way the comment feature is set up, with new comments immediately jumping to the top of a queue of recent comments on the home page, was great for facilitating discussion. I also noticed that the conversation was heavily dominant by angry liberals. People complain that the blogosphere is polarized and persuasion is dead. This was the best place to engage the other side, I thought.

So I jumped in with a few rather feisty comments, which I'm rather proud of. I was amazed by the reaction. Within minutes I found myself dominating the thread, with lots of angry-liberal types piling on, satirizing, mocking, sometimes arguing. I picked mostly causes like Social Security reform and the Iraq war, where the arguments from the right side are clear, totally decisive, and naturally infuse themselves with moral passion.

After a couple of days, Brad sent a warning to my e-mail. "You're over the Troll Line..."

I had no idea what this meant. Was he asking me to back off?

Worse, it turned out: he simply went through and deleted my comments. Some he left in rump form, with partial replies. Others just disappeared. Given that my comments had been driving much of the debate, it gave the debates a weird, censored character.

I wrote Brad an e-mail. His reply (no doubt I paraphrase slightly): "I'm trying to maintain a conversation here. People can participate in proportion to the information they bring to the table. What information have you brought?"

This was a lame excuse. I had brought some facts to the table (more than many of his angry-liberal commenters who bring nothing but bitter fulminations) but more than that I brought ARGUMENT.

As an aside, the idea that only facts matter, not arguments, is perhaps implicit in the phrase "reality-based" with which the left likes to describe itself lately. The phrase seems to contain a philosophically naive notion that one can base one's opinions on facts alone, without the use of reasoning, argument, or ideology. Of course, ideology is an essential element of our minds and is part of perceiving the world; if you think you don't have one, that just shows you're too naive to be aware of your own ideology.

Anyway, it was a striking and somewhat bruising lesson about the difference between the right-wing and the left-wing blogosphere. The right embraces debate; the left censors it and runs away from it. The right talks to everyone; the left talks to their own.

The inability of the left to hold their own in the arena of argument is probably a result of their having enjoyed the domination of the media, academia, Hollywood, etc., for so long. Conservatives will have constantly encountered the liberal ideology throughout their lives. The contradiction between their own views and those that prevail in so many important spheres of American life stimulates the development of critical thinking. Liberals tend to have less exposure to conservative points of view, and they are encouraged to see conservatives as backward and ignorant, and generally not to see them as equals. As a result, they are not accustomed to argue with them and they are easily surprised and beaten if cornered into having to argue, rather than sneer.

That's why Brad DeLong has to shelter his readers by censoring out "trolls" who would win the debate if allowed to join. And it explains the difference between the liberal and conservative blogospheres more generally.

Posted by: Lancelot Finn | Jul 6, 2005 10:24:39 PM

Lancelot as seen by his fantasy world comments here is a troll who delights in causing heated discourse by bringing in his uncritical acceptance of Faux News as factual information.

Posted by: Easter Lemming Liberal News | Jul 11, 2005 4:29:51 PM

Um, Easter Lemming, I think your response to Lancelot does more to prove his post than his actual post, which wasn't that convincing. (hmm -- that is characteristic of trolls, isn't it?)

"The inability of the left to hold their own in the arena of argument is probably a result of"

...your being on the right, because the left finds rightists just as inable to hold their own in argument.

As an example of how information is better than argument, consider Chris Patil's bringing up that conservative sites are more likely to have registration of comments. Not only does this interesting on its own, it also helps me evaluate your following comment that "liberals tend to have less exposure to conservative points of view." And that comment, as an argument, is less helpful than the supporting information you provide about Brad DeLong censoring his comment threads.

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