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Staying Over
A letter-writer to Slate explains that her teenage son has his first girlfriend and that they've forbidden him from having the girl spend the night at their house. Only problem -- the girl's parents let him stay over at their house. What to do?Some parents feel that as long as behavior they don't entirely approve of is taking place under their roof—underage drinking, taping sessions of Girls Gone Wild—they are in control of it. But these two teenagers are minors, and you have an obligation to set the standards for your son's behavior. He makes quite a case for his maturity: He throws a tantrum, then pouts. As for you, what's the point of having old-fashioned values if you're not going to enforce them? You need to have a talk with the girl's parents. Don't be either defensive or self-righteous; just say your son is not allowed to sleep at their house. Yes, your son will be angry, but what you are doing is not just for now, but for when he is a parent and can draw on the lessons you taught him about standing firm.But what about the parents' substantive views here? I understand that there position is fairly widespread, though it certainly wasn't current among the parents at the den of immorality where I went to high school. And what's the logic of the anti-sleepover position? Teen sex is fine, but seen post-coital cuddling must be stopped! Or, at a minimum, curtailed. Why would you think that? What, exactly, is the problem here?
August 24, 2006 | Permalink
Comments
I think the implication is, they don't want him having sex. Now, with a 17-year-old, I think that position is both unwise and useless, but a lot of parents feel that way. It's not the sleeping.
Posted by: Steve | Aug 24, 2006 2:04:51 PM
I think the implication is, they don't want him having sex.
Or, barring that, they want to believe he's not having sex.
Posted by: neil | Aug 24, 2006 2:15:30 PM
Or, at a bare minimum, that he knows they don't approve of him having sex, but if he is, please be safe.
Posted by: dbt | Aug 24, 2006 2:18:32 PM
"Sleeping" has the value here of "not being in the bedroom alone together with the door closed."
Posted by: Total | Aug 24, 2006 2:48:10 PM
Except sleeping over is totally unnecessary for the having of sex. If he can't sleep over, fine, they'll do it and then he goes home.
Posted by: Aaron S. Veenstra | Aug 24, 2006 2:51:40 PM
Why does he want to sleep over anyway? He should be happy to have an excuse to go home after the deed is done. What kind of male wants all that "post-coital cuddling"???
(j/k, honey, if you're reading this)
Posted by: Al | Aug 24, 2006 3:05:19 PM
Also, I don't get this advice from the columnist: "You need to have a talk with the girl's parents."
Why?
Why can't the parents just say to the son: you're not allowed to sleep over at your girlfriend's house. Can't the parents control their son without bringing the girlfriends' parents into it? If he's not at home in the morning, then he's grounded, no car/computer, or whatever else is the going punishment these days.
Posted by: Al | Aug 24, 2006 3:09:12 PM
Or, barring that, they want to believe he's not having sex.
One could imagine them taking a similar position with regard to drugs, or some other behavior they can't prevent. How many parents let their kids toke up on the back porch after dinner?
Also, it's not an empty gesture for the parents to say, "Not in my house." They'll be able to kick him out of that house in less than a year's time.
Posted by: Wade | Aug 24, 2006 3:44:22 PM
I think the implication is, they don't want him having sex.
Well, sure, but the proposed rule -- even if enforced -- obviously isn't going to stop him from having sex. If they want to try and forbid him from having sex, they're at a minimum going to need to say that.
Posted by: Matthew Yglesias | Aug 24, 2006 3:54:51 PM
Like much regulation, it is intended to reduce the problematic behavior, not stop it entirely.
Posted by: Al | Aug 24, 2006 4:02:31 PM
The point is to maintain the tabboo over sex, so that it remains transgressive, and, therefore, more enjoyable.
Otherwise he'll get bored of sex and move on to more dangerous habits, like reading.
Posted by: text | Aug 24, 2006 4:21:33 PM
I believe in some places you could get in legal trouble (contributing to the delinquency of a minor or something) for allowing teenagers to have sex in your house. Spending the night makes it hard to pretend you didn't know what was going on.
Posted by: James B. Shearer | Aug 24, 2006 4:58:05 PM
You're being silly. Societal norms don't have to be logical. In fact... they're easier to enforce when they aren't. 'Do what I say because I say so.' Period.
Posted by: MattF | Aug 24, 2006 5:49:18 PM
The logic of the anti-sleepover position is simple. The parents clearly do *not* believe that teen sex is OK. Purpose of sleepover is *soley* to have sex. Ergo, no sleepover. What's so hard to understand?
Now perhaps you can argue that this will just *shift* the sex to different times & circumstances, so the anti-sleepover policy is ineffectual. And that's probably true. But just because you can't stop your child from doing something you disapprove of doesn't mean that you must therefore *help* him do it.
Posted by: weichi | Aug 24, 2006 6:01:49 PM
How else are kids going to learn discretion and the little hypocrisies that are essential to getting along with people when you disagree on fundamental issues? I had to learn to sneak around. It's a useful skill to learn. If I could have been blessed with children, I would have wanted them to learn it.
Posted by: CJColucci | Aug 24, 2006 6:38:35 PM
How many parents let their kids toke up on the back porch after dinner?
It's not a bad idea, really. Teenagers are more likely to be honest with their parents, I think, if they're treated like adults in return. And in turn, are more likely to act mature if treated like adults, etc.
Posted by: neil | Aug 24, 2006 8:28:50 PM
Last year, my partner and I went to visit my mother. She showed us into her guest bedroom, in which she had very kindly set up--a second bed.
I'm 51; my partner is 49.
I think we have a cultural taboo against having parents be in any way complicit in their childrens' sex lives. That's why it doesn't seem to matter that barring sleepovers is utterly ineffective in stopping teenage sex-what's important is that the parents not be involved.
I'm not saying it makes sense, mind you . . .
Posted by: rea | Aug 24, 2006 8:31:14 PM
Don't think of it as a ridiculous and arbitrary policy designed to give the parents a completely bogus sense of being positively engaged in their childrens' lives.
Think of it as a brilliant, sure-fire tactic to ensure that these teens do their damndest to get into college so that they can move out of the house as soon as possible.
Posted by: Doctor Memory | Aug 25, 2006 12:26:09 AM
Mr. Henley has the answer to this dilemma.
http://highclearing.com/index.php/archives/2006/08/24/5428
Posted by: Curtis Erhart | Aug 25, 2006 4:17:12 AM
Weichi answers your question directly: "But just because you can't stop your child from doing something you disapprove of doesn't mean that you must therefore *help* him do it."
It seems to me that you disagree with their view that teen sex is bad. Pick on that, not on their attempt to fulfill their idea of "good parenting". Give them credit for attempting to go the extra mile to fulfill their parenting obligations.
My view on teen sex - most teens would be better off waiting until they are more emotionally mature. So it goes.
Posted by: Chuck | Aug 25, 2006 10:59:11 AM
Eh, I dunno Chuck. For some reason our culture seems to always want to ignore age differences when we talk about these sorts of issues. It always drives me crazy how people talk about "underage drinking" and basically assume that a 13 year old who drinks himself to sleep in the basement is part of the same "problem" as a 20 year old drinking a couple of beers with a friend in his dorm room. Its really sort of insane.
Teen sex discussions seem to have the same problems. If we're talking about 13 year olds then I suppose I think teen sex is bad. 17 year olds? I can't say it bothers me much. We end up equating something thats pretty normal with something that really might be emotionally unhealthy.
Posted by: Gabe | Aug 25, 2006 12:08:47 PM
One might argue that sex per se isn't too bad, but post-coital cuddling might lead to dangerous levels of emotional intimacy, and the kids will be wrecks when they go their seperate ways to college and such, talking on the phone for three hours a day, pining, succumbing to depression and loneliness, etc., whereas they'd be happy, well-adjusted, and healthy if they just regarded each other as disposable sex toys easily replaced by any other reasonably attractive member of the opposite sex.
Note: "one might argue" does not mean "someone actually does argue," because no one really does.
Posted by: Julian Elson | Aug 25, 2006 12:41:13 PM
I am nearly speechless at the shock and awe expressed here over the prohibition on sleep-overs. Perhaps it's because you're missing what is probably the companion rule: no boys/girls in your room with the door closed, period.
That's how I was raised and I'm still a well-adjusted, comfortable-with-her-sexuality adult. At the end of the day, if nothing else, it is a respect thing. Isn't there some kind of general sentiment that men can be accurately judged by how they treat their mothers/parents generally?
This boy's parents need to say no and then if they can't keep him away, need to inform the gal's parents as well.
This isn't some kind of denial of personal identity. It's a reasonable expectation of proper decorum and seems to be sadly lacking these days.
Posted by: cd | Aug 25, 2006 8:15:09 PM
A possibly related story. If you don't have a problem with teen drinking, drugs and sex, then presumably you don't have a problem with this woman, right?
Posted by: Al | Aug 25, 2006 9:23:20 PM
A few question about this 17 y.o.: does he pay his parents the equivalent rent for his portion of the house? Pay them for the food, cooking, and laundry services he consumes in their house? Pay for his own medical insurance/care? Have his own auto insurance policy?
Mosly likely answers: Probably not. No. No. No way in heck.
So, what part of the word "dependent" do you not understand? Do you think that the supporting (not supportive) parents have any right to set expected rules of conduct, or not? If not, why shouldn't they just kick the guy out of their house? In our state at least it would be legal to do so after age 16. That way he can spend as much time as he wants with his girlfriend. Of course, he will rapidly find out that without all the resources provided to him for free by his parents he isn't quite so attrative to her.
Cranky
I love parenting advice from 25 y.o. unmarried childless men!
Posted by: Cranky Observer | Aug 26, 2006 8:07:11 AM
"Isn't there some kind of general sentiment that men can be accurately judged by how they treat their mothers/parents generally?"
Yes.
I also think people can be judged by how they treat their children.
Posted by: duvidil | Aug 26, 2006 11:49:25 AM
Cranky,
We're not arguing over whether the parents have the *right* to set these rules -- we're arguing over whether it's *wise* for them to set this particular rule. My opinion, without knowing anything about the kids in question, is no. Your 17-year-old son is going to have sex if he can find anyone who will have sex with him, so having sex in a stable relationship at his girlfriend's house is a pretty good deal. In most cases, 17 is plenty old enough to have a real relationship, sex and all. I'm not sure where I draw that line -- depends on how mature the kid is -- but 15 is usually too young and 17 is probably almost always old enough.
Posted by: Steve | Aug 26, 2006 1:33:13 PM
Not all 17 year olds will have sex, even given the opportunity - even given an empty house and a fresh, waiting roll of condomw. Some kids have the ability to exercise judgment and decide it's not for them at that point in their lives. I think it's highly condescending to assume that "boys will be boys" and end the argument there.
As for judging parents by how they treat their children - I can only assume your implication is that by setting up limits on acceptible behavior, the parents are instilling in the child a sense of a lack of trust that will damn his precious self-esteem forever. Or they are showing themselves to be in denial about what will just happen anyway - or anything along those lines.
Of course, in the alternative, it's possible that the parents of a son, in particular, are trying to teach him that regardless of what his dick is telling him to do, there are ways to show respect to his own and his girlfriend's parents, not to mention to his girlfriend herself, that may involve a measure of self restraint.
The parents here are both wise and right to set the rules and to expect that their child is capable of following them.
Posted by: cd | Aug 26, 2006 2:02:36 PM
I think sex at 17 is not just natural/common but healthy for boys in particular. So these prudish parents prudery are actually working against their son's best interests in the name of their prudery. Within reasonable limits, the sooner guys start sleeping with women and demystifying sex qua sex, the sooner they get over the whole predatory casual sex "trying to get laid" thing and start developing knowledge of how to have a full human relationship with a one single woman. Not true for everyone perhaps, but I've seen this frequently. The worst situation of all for boys is when virginity is prolonged for years past hormonal maturity -- one can see various casualties of this phenomenon on the web all the time.
On the other hand, I also think Julian Elson above has a good point. All-night cuddling maximizes emotional bonding, making the inevitable off-to-college breakup that much worse.
Posted by: MQ | Aug 27, 2006 3:10:44 AM
A failed edit resulted in massive overuse of several variants of "prude" in the second sentence above. Some of which may not even by words. Apologies to anyone who winced helplessly.
Posted by: MQ | Aug 27, 2006 3:12:44 AM
Good post MQ. And cd, I understand how obeying your parents' orders shows respect for them, but I'm not sure how abstaining from consensual sex with your girlfriend necessarily shows respect for her. Oh that's right, girls who have sex are nasty sluts who can't be respected, where are my manners.
Posted by: Barbar | Aug 27, 2006 12:58:04 PM
This post proves Yglesias is a moron or was raised by really fucked up parents. Why would parents not want there teen sone to sleep overnight at his teen girlfriends?
Maybe the answer should be "because i said so."
I thoughts parents seemed lax here in NYC (from Texas myself) but Yglesias shows I am correct.
Posted by: morkfrombrooklyn | Aug 27, 2006 5:56:28 PM
Barbar: [insert eye roll here]
Posted by: cd | Aug 27, 2006 11:25:26 PM
I thoughts parents seemed lax here in NYC (from Texas myself) but Yglesias shows I am correct.
Don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way back home, then, Red.
Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Aug 28, 2006 11:10:16 AM
"Don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way back home, then, Red."
I'm actually quite "Blue". Idiot, some of us liberals Dems have fairly strict family values as well.
Posted by: morkfrombrooklyn | Aug 28, 2006 2:20:23 PM
Forgive me if this point has been elsewheres made but how can the girl's parents let him stay over? Isn't it up to his parents whether or not he can stay over her house (as well as her parents, of course). Anyway, I agree with his parents. Things are too easy for kids nowadays. They should have to do their deed in the back of a Horizon, or in the passenger seat of Nova, while sinking down, outasight, with each passing car. Oh, the memories.
Posted by: LowLife | Aug 28, 2006 2:36:09 PM
how can the girl's parents let him stay over?
Maybe because it's their house?
Things are too easy for kids nowadays. They should have to do their deed in the back of a Horizon, or in the passenger seat of Nova, while sinking down, outasight, with each passing car
God forbid kids should be able to have sex in places where they're more likely to handle it safely and intelligently.
Posted by: Christmas | Aug 28, 2006 8:37:23 PM
All you freaks WANT to and ENJOY having sex in your PARENT'S house? Oh ick. Ick Ick Ick.
If they really want to get it on, they can just as easily use condoms at their motel room they paid for with their afterschool job.
Creepy. Ugh. None of you have children and apparently you've blocked out your own childhoods.
Posted by: whaaa? | Aug 29, 2006 12:09:18 AM
Maybe 17 is plenty old enough to have sex, but it's not necessarily the responsible thing to do, no matter where it is ... er, done. The boy's parents are right not to facilitate the kid's lustful adventures.
What happens if his girlfriend gets pregnant? Is he going to raise the kid with her? Get married? Forego school, etc.? These are serious consequences.
Someone of you will, of course, suggest that she get an abortion. Assuming that there won't be any moral problems with that "choice", what will that do to the girl emotionally? What will it do to their son? And isn't that just using abortion as a method of birth control? What happened to making it legal but rare?
We won't even get into STD's.
The fact remains that making it easier for teenagers to have sex just means more opportunities for them to do so, which of course means more "accidents." Somebody is going to have to pay for and clean up those accidents, and you can bet that it won't be the 17 year old on his own. Permissive parents don't instill any sense of responsibility in their children, but instead help to foster narcisism and self-loathing. Telling them "No" is teaching them to say "No" to themselves.
BTW, the reason the boy's parents are concerned about what the girl's parents will allow is that they can't simply forbid their son from staying at anybody's house. It's the oldest trick in the book to say, "I'm staying at John's" and then going out with John somewhere else for the night.
Posted by: MichaelW | Aug 29, 2006 3:30:21 PM
I don't blame the parents for not wanting their son to have sex, however, he will get mad when they don't let him sleepover and find elsewhere to have sex. I still believe, though, that the parents can make those rules, and it would be contradictory for them to have old-fashioned values and not actually stick with it. He'll still have sex if he really wants to, but it will be harder to find a place and he will know deep down that someone doesn't approve. I think that may help him in the long run.
Posted by: Susan | Aug 29, 2006 8:11:33 PM
I don't think I'm a prude, but I do think society in general would be better off if everyone just sort of generally agreed to postpone sex until graduating from high school. It seems to me that sex at that age made a lot of people miserable and in some cases leaves long lasting scars and hang-ups, more than it's probably worth in the long-run. For starters, there are the people who were miserable because they weren't having it and thought everyone else was. Then there are the people who were having sex in the context of relationships that they took way too seriously and was a constant source of drama and misery. Then there are the girls who were having sex they weren't enjoying because they were being coerced into it or worse, and, more frequently, girls who were having crappy, unenjoyable sex because, let's face it, most teenage boys don't have a clue what they're doing and aren't mature or considerate enough to do it well even if they did. Honestly, recalling the guys I knew as a teenager or even teenage boys I observe today, I'm very glad I waited until I and my partners were real grown-ups to let anyone other than me get anywhere near my genitals.
We could forgo all this drama and the longterm scars it leaves for some people, and still satisfy everyone's physical needs if we just encouraged teenagers to masturbate often and enthuiastically (especially the girls, and taught them how to do so well, which would help them to enjoy sex more when they are older), but to forgo interpersonal sex until they are a little older. I'd also favor some arrangements to help teenage boys get together (safely) with more experienced, older women to teach them some skills before they get near a woman their own age.
Posted by: flippantangel | Aug 29, 2006 11:52:20 PM
The fact that everyone here doesn't agree with Michael W.'s self-evident statements is a sign of how screwed up our culture is.
Posted by: James Kabala | Aug 30, 2006 10:22:35 PM
"What happens if his girlfriend gets pregnant? Is he going to raise the kid with her? Get married? Forego school, etc.? These are serious consequences."
And is she more likely to get pregnant if the parents forbid them from having sex, or if they help the kids get good birth control?
Posted by: MQ | Sep 1, 2006 2:36:45 PM
If somebody told me that they want to tell me whom I may invite to sleep in my home, I'd tell them to get lost. If they want to control their son to that level, they'll have to do it themselves or yield to the inevitable. I am not going to enforce somebody else's rules on sex.
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Posted by: bride | Oct 11, 2006 5:59:24 PM

