Matthew Yglesias: Why, Yes, I am An Asshole

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Why, Yes, I am An Asshole

Over at Tapped, Ben Adler misses the point about this Washington Post article. The whole concept that there's some kind of "big three" universities in the United States -- Harvard, Yale, and Princeton is a foolish Tiger construct. There's Harvard, there's an Ivy League, and there's a Harvard-Yale rivalry. Number one US News ranking or not, Princeton simply has nothing to do with it and these efforts to pull away from the Brown-Columbia-Dartmouth-Cornell-Penn pack are, frankly, unseemly.

Yes, yes, it's rude but that's the way it is. Copious research indicate that college choice is, in fact, unimportant for life outcomes leads to the conclusion that the only relevant considerations are (a) cost, (b) weather, (c) snob factor and that New Jersey school just can't compare to Harvard and Yale in category (c).

August 22, 2006 | Permalink

Comments

By any chance did you go to Harvard?

Posted by: CJColucci | Aug 22, 2006 4:53:42 PM

the funny thing about this is that, while I agree with you, Princeton students and alums are, by far, much bigger snobs than the products of either Harvard or Yale.

Posted by: Goldberg | Aug 22, 2006 5:02:36 PM

Harvard sucks.

Posted by: fnook | Aug 22, 2006 5:03:52 PM

MY-
There's no need to be defensive just because Princeton boasts both the quality undergraduate experience and legitimate mascot critically lacking at Harvard.

Posted by: Mark | Aug 22, 2006 5:20:43 PM

The bigger point Adler missed was that the offending article was in the Style section, not the News section, geez louise.

And, honey, if whether and cost are included along with snob factor in your top three deciding factors (though I sincerely doubt you had any reason to worry about cost), why the hell did you go to an Ivy League school?

I, on the other hand, chose my school entirely based on whether and how much money they would give me and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

Posted by: flippantangel | Aug 22, 2006 5:23:31 PM

Damnit, I meant "weather" not "whether." I swear I did get a decent education despite a serious tendency towards that particular error.

Posted by: flippantangel | Aug 22, 2006 5:24:56 PM

Please, MY, tell me you're not in fact one of those Harvard snotmouths. I have to deal with these people all day, every day and let me tell you, it sucks.

Funnily enough, the Harvard alumni I know who went to Harvard as undergrads and got advanced degrees at other places tend not to be so obnoxious as those who either have no advanced degree, or worse, Harvard Law alums. Plus, sometimes it is so easy to laugh at them. There was the time when one of them saw me making my morning coffee in my $25000 coffee mug (which says "University of Virginia Alumni" on it) and actually said to me, "You went to college?" He was incredulous. I work in Systems, you see. Yes, you jackweed, I went to the best public university in the nation. (Berkeley, Schmerkeley, that's what I say! Even us lowly publicly educated folks have our snobbery.)

Posted by: ajw93 | Aug 22, 2006 5:42:14 PM

"MY-
There's no need to be defensive just because Princeton boasts both the quality undergraduate experience and legitimate mascot critically lacking at Harvard."

Thank you, sir. You just made my day.

Posted by: matt | Aug 22, 2006 5:59:28 PM

As a Harvard grad, I would certainly like to agree with you. But the fact of the matter is that Princeton has a consistently similar acceptance rate despite (a) having an absurdly long application with 4 actually hard essays (I remember one being "what could we do to improve race relations in this country?"), (b) not being everyone's "dream" school as Harvard generally is considered, in my experience, and (c) being in the boonies of NJ rather than hip Cambridge.

The only reason Harvard is so consistently regarded higher than Princeton (and Yale, to a lesser extent) in the common esteem is its preponderance of excellent grad schools, which enrich the College, oh, not at all.

Posted by: right | Aug 22, 2006 6:13:18 PM

Need I note that none of these schools boasts a competitive football squad? MY will tell you that the Harvard–Yale rivalry is the oldest in college football, but that's neither here nor there when the BCS bowls around. Princeton and whoever else can keep their dining clubs. Hook 'em Horns!

Posted by: Armsmasher | Aug 22, 2006 6:14:18 PM

Princeton students and alums are, by far, much bigger snobs than the products of either Harvard or Yale

In my experience, this is correct. In the contest of bigget snobs, Princeton rules.

Also, in my experience, there is no Brown-Columbia-Dartmouth-Cornell-Penn "pack". One of those schools is indisputably superior to the others.

Posted by: Al | Aug 22, 2006 6:14:30 PM

MY will tell you that the Harvard–Yale rivalry is the oldest in college football, but that's neither here nor there when the BCS bowls around.

The BCS means nothing. The only championship that matter is the Ivy championship.

Posted by: Al | Aug 22, 2006 6:17:16 PM

You need to distinguish between kinds of snobbery, I think. Certainly Harvard & Yale have more snob appeal among sort of haute bourgeoisie types. But there's also the more blue-blood sort for whom Princeton is just about at the top of the pyramid.

Posted by: Christopher M | Aug 22, 2006 6:31:29 PM

i think the perception of princeton as somewhat the poor sister (filled with wealthier folk on average?) arises from the fact that harvard and yale consider each other rivals, princeton is somewhat left out (though a bigger rival than the rest of the ivies).

Posted by: dj superflat | Aug 22, 2006 6:35:55 PM

There is nothing more amusing than American snobbery, except perhaps Australian snobbery.

If you went to a school founded after 1400, it's like you bought your own furniture.

Posted by: otto | Aug 22, 2006 6:46:15 PM

Also, in my experience, there is no Brown-Columbia-Dartmouth-Cornell-Penn "pack". One of those schools is indisputably superior to the others.

I'd like Al to play to type and be a Dartmouth alumnus -- a small college, and yet there are conservatives who love it -- but I'm guessing he went to Penn. Do I win a Marvel No-Prize, Al?

Posted by: Steve | Aug 22, 2006 6:48:31 PM

Also, in my experience, there is no Brown-Columbia-Dartmouth-Cornell-Penn "pack". One of those schools is indisputably superior to the others.

Which one is that, and when did you graduate?

Posted by: flippantangel | Aug 22, 2006 6:50:43 PM

Since Princeton was ranked #1 in that US news survey, the Washington Post would have a hard time leaving them out of the article.

Posted by: joe o | Aug 22, 2006 8:08:19 PM

Heh, one of my law school classmates was a Hah-vahd undergrad man, but of course he had to be ultra snooty and gives us the "Oh I went to school in Boston" bullshit. Of course about 2 weeks of everyone derisively asking "is that how they do it in Boston?" cured him real quick like...

Posted by: Pooh | Aug 22, 2006 8:32:29 PM

And lest I miss a chance to make a fool of myself...Harvard of the Midwest - boo-yah

Posted by: Pooh | Aug 22, 2006 8:33:39 PM

"Yes, you jackweed, I went to the best public university in the nation. (Berkeley, Schmerkeley, that's what I say! Even us lowly publicly educated folks have our snobbery.)"

Berkeley and Virginia and both excellent schools, easily the worthiest runners up to the true greatest public university: Michigan. And I'm on MY's side with this one, Harvard is clearly superior. Why, it's nearly a Michigan of the East!

Posted by: justin | Aug 22, 2006 9:43:11 PM

Steve, flippantangel, I gave you a hint in the next post. Oh, OK... Brown. Which, in my HUMBLE opinion, is superior to the other 4. :-) I graduated in the early 90s. Not exactly to type, eh, Steve?

Posted by: Al | Aug 22, 2006 11:04:21 PM

I don't get all of this snobbery.

Harvard, Yale, and Princeton are all good safety schools for those who didn't get into Brown, Wesleyan, or Bennington.

Posted by: Petey | Aug 22, 2006 11:28:20 PM

I don't see how any of you got an education without clergy around. It's all about the Catholic Harvard, baby (although we tend to flip it and call the Cambridge school the Heathen Georgetown).

Besides, we stole both Princeton's basketball coach and system a few years ago. We're coming off a Sweet 16 run, they finished at the bottom of the Ivy League last year. Boo. Yah.

Posted by: Cain | Aug 23, 2006 2:37:46 AM

Eh, these rankings mean nothing anyways... Ivy League schools are businesses: they accept undergrads who will dutifully collect high GPAs and important-sounding resumes (helped by grade inflation and a large number of meaningless activities), go on to MDs, JDs, MBAs, (helped by weighted grad admittances), and contribute large amounts of money as alumnis.

Any liberal arts college would provide a better education, and any state school would be a better value.

Posted by: derkabok | Aug 23, 2006 3:26:53 AM

I'm a little confused. After all, Harvard is only, at most, the second best institution of higher learning in Cambridge, MA. :p

Posted by: wml | Aug 23, 2006 3:47:34 AM

It is a little strange that Matt consistently suggests that statistics on economic outcomes measure the college input: Harvard's focus on extracurriculars consistently produce a very disproportionate number of "Matts," i.e., well-educated people who succeed in fields where the returns are status-driven and/or psychic/do-gooding.

It seems reletaively clear that in the arts, Yale is superior in these (often) non-rich elites, whereas in most other fields (esp. DC ones), Harvard is unparalleled.

Part of that percveption could be because Princeton is more GOP & I know fewer of those people....

Posted by: Jeff H | Aug 23, 2006 7:00:14 AM

Steve, flippantangel, I gave you a hint in the next post. Oh, OK... Brown. Which, in my HUMBLE opinion, is superior to the other 4. :-) I graduated in the early 90s. Not exactly to type, eh, Steve?

I was actually guessing Penn based on the basketball interest and my sense of the make-up of the student body, but that works too... No, who am I kidding? That's a surprise. Let me give you the Josiah Carberry secret handshake and we can talk about the Naked Party.

Posted by: Steve | Aug 23, 2006 8:24:27 AM

Steve, flippantangel, I gave you a hint in the next post. Oh, OK... Brown. Which, in my HUMBLE opinion, is superior to the other 4. :-) I graduated in the early 90s. Not exactly to type, eh, Steve?

Sorry, Al, that was useless to me as I resolutely ignore all college sports north of the Mason-Dixon line. (I'm an SEC girl...)

But--graduated in the early 90's? I had you pegged for a cranky old man, and here you don't even have a decade on me! (Although, with a b-day coming up, I must admit, I AM getting old....)

Posted by: flippantangel | Aug 23, 2006 9:56:14 AM

Sorry to get all serious on you, but it just astonished me to read a long article on the US News rankings without one word on the criteria used. These tend to reward past reputation, a large endowment and wealth among the student body. (A high graduation rate is a pretty good proxy for a high number of students whose parents can pay for 4 years of college without concern.) Selectivity ranking means that the school does a good job of encouraging lots of applicants who can't get in. High SAT/ACT scores and grades means that the students are smart when they get there, not that the school educates them well. In terms of criteria that a kid might want to know of in choosing a school, there are only a few: class size, faculty-student ratio, and percentage of full-time faculty. (Nothing about whether those faculty actually teach.)

How it has come about that a third-rate, unread news magazine gets to decide the relative prestige of American universities is a mystery to me. But then, I didn't attend one of the top ten schools, so I get no snob-appeal thrill from reading the rankings.

Posted by: PDJones | Aug 23, 2006 10:53:55 AM

Any liberal arts college would provide a better education, and any state school would be a better value.

Word to that. Everyone knows the Ivys are a sucker's bet. The last thing I want to do as an undergrad is ask my parents to spend $35K a year to subsidize a bunch of grad students.

--------

Yes, you jackweed, I went to the best public university in the nation.

It's getting increasingly hard to argue with a straight face that UVA is actually a public school.

At the end of the day, I hail the maize and blue like Pooh. Although I think it fails Matt's weather test, unless your other car is a dogsled.

Posted by: DJ Ninja | Aug 23, 2006 10:58:13 AM

snobs will be snobs no matter where they went to school. Some people are just born with the snobster gene.

Posted by: Emma | Aug 23, 2006 1:51:07 PM

"snobs will be snobs no matter where they went to school. Some people are just born with the snobster gene."

Snobbery is a good thing, within reason. Taste is a good thing.

Without standards, we'd all be eating tuna fish salad sandwiches with Miracle Whip on Wonder Bread.

Posted by: Petey | Aug 23, 2006 2:08:02 PM

"of course he had to be ultra snooty and gives us the "Oh I went to school in Boston" bullshit."

I do this too and trust me, it really helps with a lot of people. You don't want to drop the H-bomb when somebody casually asks you where you went to school, it gets reactions that are at best difficult to manage and disruptive to the conversation.

The truth about U.S. higher education is that the quality of education is that we created so many qualified Phds over the last few decades (way in excess of demand) that quality is extremely high at many dozens of different schools. When you add in that a smart student will get a lot of individualized attention at a "lesser" school that s/he won't get at a place like Harvard, where they are just another bright young thing, it is pretty easy for an undergrad to get a much better deal educationally than they can at Harvard/Yale/Princeton. On the other hand, if you want privileged access to some very high paying professional career tracks H/Y/P do that much better than anywhere else. But the way things are going you can get that entree just as well by attending grad school there.

I always thought that if you are just really smart and want to get a great challenging education the absolute best places to go are the geek trinity of MIT, Cal Tech, or Chicago. I've been consistently more impressed by what I saw of the educational processes and graduates from there than from the status-oriented schools like H/Y/P.

Posted by: MQ | Aug 23, 2006 2:38:51 PM

"I always thought that if you are just really smart and want to get a great challenging education the absolute best places to go are the geek trinity of MIT, Cal Tech, or Chicago."

If you're more interested in learning about numbers and logic than learning about humans...

Posted by: Petey | Aug 23, 2006 2:57:08 PM

It's the insectile similarity of college comparison discussions that boosts this thread to a stunning 8.5 Dunbars!

Posted by: Jeffrey Davis | Aug 23, 2006 3:22:36 PM

Everyone knows the Ivys are a sucker's bet. The last thing I want to do as an undergrad is ask my parents to spend $35K a year to subsidize a bunch of grad students.

Hey, I resemble that remark!

Posted by: Evan McElravy | Aug 23, 2006 3:34:44 PM

It's getting increasingly hard to argue with a straight face that UVA is actually a public school.

At the end of the day, I hail the maize and blue like Pooh. Although I think it fails Matt's weather test, unless your other car is a dogsled.

I don't know, it's still pretty darn cheap if you're a Virginian. I just took my little sister on the prospective students tour and things look pretty much the same as they did fifteen years ago. Of course, every ten days or so I get a letter asking for money. Though I hear from folks who attended other VA public schools that this is common - state budget cuts and the general shortfall due to the demise of the hated car tax. What the U doesn't realize is, now that they've instituted a high-school band, they're never getting another dime out of me. Heh.

My mother's ex-husband (who taught at Bard College at the time - talk about hoity-toity) once said, when I was considering colleges, "Oh, I've heard that U.-Va. is 'the Harvard of the South'". Think what you want about the validity of such a thought, but maybe it explains my anti-Hah-vahd leanings?

And hey, I may be a 'Hoo, but my other car IS a dogsled! How did you know?

Posted by: ajw93 | Aug 23, 2006 3:37:08 PM

At the end of the day, I hail the maize and blue like Pooh. Although I think it fails Matt's weather test, unless your other car is a dogsled.

Is that a cheap shot? I think that's a cheap shot...

Posted by: Pooh | Aug 23, 2006 4:17:48 PM

"Damnit, I meant "weather" not "whether." I swear I did get a decent education"

Sure. Sure you did.

Y'know, if you'd gone to Harvard like Matthew, you'd never have homonym problems...

Posted by: Petey | Aug 23, 2006 4:58:33 PM

I had you pegged for a cranky old man, and here you don't even have a decade on me!

Sometimes I feel like a cranky old man around here. At least until howard shows up! :-D

Oh, and as to "the "Oh I went to school in Boston" bullshit"... um, didn't the guy actually go to school in Cambridge? Never ask for accuracy from a Harvard man, I suppose.

Posted by: Al | Aug 23, 2006 5:03:53 PM

It's interesting to read how these class concerns still exist among otherwise educated adults, years after graduating from university. I remember the days of my youth, growing up in the south, where the main concerns were whether one was was graded enough, and would "fit in" enough, at snob schools such as Duke or Vanderbilt. Harvard and Yale simply weren't part of the conversation, as "our people" would never want to go to school with "those people." My thought is, these rankings by the mainstream media only serve to divide us into groups, conceptually, well after the usefulness of such rankings have expired. I would love to see the rankings go the way of the Dodo.

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Posted by: carisoprodol | Aug 24, 2006 2:11:12 AM

Copious research indicate that college choice is, in fact, unimportant for life outcomes leads to the conclusion that the only relevant considerations are (a) cost, (b) weather, (c) snob factor and that New Jersey school just can't compare to Harvard and Yale in category (c).

You forgot d), hotties. I got into international relations because I was disgusted by the lack of knowledge and understanding of other cultures by my compatriots, by the hysteria about Muslims whipped up in the media, and because my IR lecturer was a total hunk with a big hairy chest and silver hair like Mandrake the Magician.

Posted by: Schwa-Schwa | Aug 24, 2006 5:57:40 AM

Is that a cheap shot? I think that's a cheap shot...

LOL. Pooh, you're funny. I only meant to stress MN's inclement winter weather. Any relation to your current residence was merely coincidental.

Posted by: DJ Ninja | Aug 24, 2006 9:48:04 AM

I sometimes think that I would have liked Yale better than Harvard because of its reputation as a more artistic place. I got a lot of attention in my concentration (Classics), because the department was pretty small--though nto as small as German. In fact, for my field, a smaller school would probably have been stultifying. We had 8-11 professors. In a smaller school there might have been only 2 or 3. Harvard also has awesoem Celtic stuff and a better Sanskrit/South Asian studoes department than Princeton. (If you're interested in East Asian stuff, Harvard is the place to go.)

What really got me to write this comment though was the obvious point. Harvard's rival is Yale, and Yale's rival is Harvard. Princeton likes to pretend that Harvard is its rival, but that's just pathetic. (They could try to set the Tigers against the Bull Dogs, but I don't think they tried that.) Princeton's the odd one out. Maybe they should just make Dartmouth or Brown their rival, but pretending that there's any sort of real Princeton-Harvard rivalry is just sad.

Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Aug 24, 2006 11:41:28 PM

Of course, I have to add that the biggest Classics department in the country is in Austin.

Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Aug 24, 2006 11:51:12 PM

Heh, one of my law school classmates was a Hah-vahd undergrad man, but of course he had to be ultra snooty and gives us the "Oh I went to school in Boston" bullshit. Of course about 2 weeks of everyone derisively asking "is that how they do it in Boston?" cured him real quick like...

Years later, this person will begin every third sentence with "Well, at my prior law firm . . . " until somebody asks "What was your prior firm?" so they can answer "Cravath."

Posted by: bill | Aug 25, 2006 1:23:42 AM

UVA? Surely Berkeley's competition for best public school in America is Michigan, no?

Posted by: Trevor | Aug 25, 2006 1:25:41 AM

THis discussion is fascinating to me. A bunch of Ivy League brats, arguing with each other about which school was ranked better in some random magazine. Of course, tommorow Matt and his reader will be discussing how to redistribute everyones income so the poor don't get left behind or something like that...give me a break.

Posted by: john | Aug 25, 2006 9:24:09 AM

[i]THis discussion is fascinating to me. A bunch of Ivy League brats, arguing with each other about which school was ranked better in some random magazine. Of course, tommorow Matt and his reader will be discussing how to redistribute everyones income so the poor don't get left behind or something like that...give me a break.[/i]

Some strikingly original, deep and meaningful thought there. Thanks for showing us all the way to intellectual greatness and moral clarity.

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Posted by: abilify | Aug 26, 2006 6:31:21 AM

Copious research indicate that college choice is, in fact, unimportant for life outcomes...

Hey Matt, how many of your buddies at TAP didn't go to one of the big three?

Posted by: X | Aug 26, 2006 8:27:58 AM

Well, of course princeton is a fetid swamp infested with social parasites at densities which fall short only to harvard's and yale's. As you can tell, I'm a great fan of the ivies.

Posted by: BroD | Aug 26, 2006 8:54:27 PM

"Harvard's rival is Yale, and Yale's rival is Harvard. Princeton likes to pretend that Harvard is its rival, but that's just pathetic."

Sorry to have to point this out, but by any reasonable standard of academic quality Yale is far inferior to both Princeton and Harvard. (Check out Nobel prizes, for instance). This really shows up in the quality of graduate education, which is a good proxy for whether departments are at the leading edge of their field. For non-humanities, non-arts fields Yale isn't even one of the top five universities in the country. It still does get good students though.

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Posted by: alimta | Aug 27, 2006 6:17:36 PM

Wow, MQ. "For non-humanities, non-arts fields" leaves a lot of important stuff out, like, well, the humanities and the arts which are pretty damn important.

But I think you misunderstood my point, because I wasn't entirely clear. Princeton likes to think that Harvard is its rival in sports. That's why I mentioned the Tigers and the Bulldogs. For a lot of Princeton people I've known, the big game in any sport is teh one they play against Harvard, but for Harvard people the important sports rivalry are their games with Yale and vice versa.

Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Aug 27, 2006 7:02:49 PM

If sports is all we're concerned about, the big rival for Princeton is Penn (and vice versa). I don't think any Ivy League team other than those two have played a basketball or football game that really mattered in the past 15 years.

Posted by: bill | Aug 27, 2006 9:30:11 PM

but for Harvard people the important sports rivalry are their games with Yale and vice versa

Oh, you get this all the time. As a student at the University of Minnesota born of generations of Iowa Hawkeyes, I was shocked the first time I heard U of M students chanting "Who hates Iowa? We hate Iowa!" at a football game. Minnesota's not even really on the radar for Iowa; Hawkeyes are all about hating on Iowa State and Indiana. Fortunately Minnesota has a mutual rivalry with Wisconsin. I feel so sorry for poor little Michigan State, which wants to be rivals with Michigan, which has eyes only for Ohio State.

Posted by: L. | Aug 28, 2006 2:44:31 AM

NB the "Who hates Iowa" chanting took place at games that were not against Iowa. In fact it happened at every Gopher sporting event that I went to, none of which were against Iowa.

Posted by: L. | Aug 28, 2006 2:49:13 AM

I got kicked out of Harvard after 1 semester but I can use the library for the rest of my life. :)

Posted by: Greg | Aug 28, 2006 3:00:13 AM

The sad thing is that as far as the rest of the world is concerned there is only Harvard. If you tell someone in China, Taiwan or Japan you went to Yale or Princeton they will just give you a sad look as if to say "sorry you weren't good enough for Harvard."

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Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 29, 2006 2:37:01 PM

I second the above comment. Also, note that if you go by wealth per student--resources for labs, professors, facilities, scholarships in other words--Princeton is No. 1 in the country. The phrase "The Big Three" has a long history--which is why Jerome Karabel focuses on HYP (that acronym also has a long history) in his book "The Chosen."

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