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?

Talk about your hard-to-please editors.

Peter Beinart says

Having said it invaded Iraq to bring democracy, the Bush administration must now heed Iraqi public opinion. And, having said Iraq is once again sovereign, it must defer to Allawi's interim government. But, because Islamists like Sadr are vastly more popular than the United States (and more popular than Allawi, too), Bush's core principles are slamming into one another. A hard line against Islamist killers requires that we storm the Imam Ali Shrine. A commitment to democracy requires that we don't.

This is what happens when you lose the hearts and minds of a people. Because the Bush administration arrogantly refused to do what was necessary to secure--and thus rebuild--postwar Iraq, most Iraqis have turned against us. And now, America's political weakness has produced military weakness. At the end of the day, if you don't listen and you don't plan and you don't adapt, you lose your capacity to be tough. Perhaps that's what John Kerry has been trying to say.

But the editorial says
Sure, even absent a clear plan, promises to bring soldiers home swiftly may help Kerry in Dayton and Milwaukee. But they will hurt America in Najaf and Baqubah, emboldening the Baathist and Islamist guerrillas and demoralizing the government of Iyad Allawi and whoever succeeds him in elections scheduled for January. What's more, these promises will make it harder for Kerry to insure the stable Iraq he says he wants. The purpose of exit strategies is to win elections, not wars. Kerry needs to demonstrate that he remains as committed to the second goal as he is to the first.
In short: Due to Bush's errors it is no longer possible to fight the Iraqi insurgency effectively, and yet after the election we must re-commit ourselves to fighting the Iraqi insurgency more effectively.

August 19, 2004 | Permalink

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Recipe for a quagmire.

Posted by: praktike | Aug 19, 2004 5:07:36 PM

Due to Bush's errors it is no longer possible to fight the Iraqi insurgency effectively


That's not what Beinart is saying at all. He is saying (wrongly, IMO) that it not possible to fight the insurgency effectively right now. He doesn't say that it can never again be possible to fight the insurgency effectively.


But Beinart is just wrong:

A commitment to democracy requires that we don't.


Huh? What the hell is Beinart talking about? Seems to me that a commitment to democracy requires that we fight those who oppose democracy. Sheesh.

Posted by: Al | Aug 19, 2004 5:08:29 PM

Links got me just a snippet.

Awesome. This not too swift dude had to go check TAPPED because I read too much and get confused.

The Michael Rubin piece gets in NRO and TNR has this editorial. I guess I am still confused.

Posted by: bob mcmanus | Aug 19, 2004 5:12:40 PM

bob-

To hold this jumbala of contradictory information in your head without going insane you need to remember two things:

1) Beinert must always be right and the rightness of his principles are inviolate

2) Michael Rubin is up to something. What's Bendor Associates all about? What does Michael Rubin want to have happen?

Posted by: praktike | Aug 19, 2004 5:21:16 PM

The TNR editorials must be heavily affected by the overwhelming hacktacularness of one Martin Peretz. The occasional articles he writes under his solo byline--usually Israel-related, it seems--are comically awful.

Posted by: Haggai | Aug 19, 2004 5:36:45 PM

Marty Peretz gives me gas.

Posted by: praktike | Aug 19, 2004 5:47:53 PM

Michael Rubin is up to something. What's Bendor Associates all about? What does Michael Rubin want to have happen?


Yeah. With a couple of exceptions like Gerecht, as a rule the way to read editorials by people in the neocon establish is not to ask "Are their ideas sound?" but rather "Why do they want people to believe this?"

Posted by: EH | Aug 19, 2004 6:09:04 PM

EH: That's an incredibly insightful comment.

Posted by: Walt Pohl | Aug 19, 2004 6:21:17 PM

Hmmm, I'm not sure I see any contradiction between these pieces. Beinart thinks Bush wasn't tough enough in Fallujah and Najaf: we should have kicked the insurgents' asses. The editorial is arguing that Kerry isn't being tough enough: we should finish the job, not pull out our troops on some political timetable.

I'm not endorsing either of these views, but they actually seem to be in harmony: TNR favors a tougher approach in Iraq. No real surprise there.

Posted by: Kevin Drum | Aug 19, 2004 6:35:52 PM

Kevin: No, Beinart is condemning Bush for having created circumstances under which "you lose your capacity to be tough." That means he would like to see a tougher policy in the abstract but recognizes that, in practice, such a policy is no longer possible. Then the editorial says Kerry should be tougher.

Posted by: Matthew Yglesias | Aug 19, 2004 7:17:58 PM

...these promises will make it harder for Kerry to insure the stable Iraq he says he wants.

That should be "ensure". Maybe they'll hire me as an editor.

Posted by: sc | Aug 19, 2004 7:19:11 PM

Kevin, here's the, er, topic sentence:

"if you don't listen and you don't plan and you don't adapt, you lose your capacity to be tough."

Posted by: praktike | Aug 19, 2004 7:27:28 PM

Um, where does Beinart get the idea that Sadr is more popular than Allawi? Two polls showed that Allawai was MUCH more popular than Sadr.

Posted by: Adam Herman | Aug 20, 2004 1:35:13 AM

I don't read Beinart's column to suggest that being tougher "is no longer possible." I read it to suggest that being tougher - i.e. working towards stability by crushing the insurgency - is no longer consistent with a meaningful commitment to democracy. It's not entirely clear which side of this tradeoff Beinart thinks we should embrace.

Meanwhile, the editorial's essential point seems to be that regardless of the primary strategic objective - stability or democracy - an early pullout is wrong. To the extent that they prioritize one of those objectives, I would agree that they seem to side with stability, i.e. crushing the insurgency. Since Beinart never takes much of a position on whether the democracy sacrifice is worth the stability, I don't think the two pieces are necessarily inconsistent.

All that said, I'm pretty tired of TNR editorials on the Iraq war. They refuse to question the neoconservative model that they embraced, instead shifting all blame to the administration's execution. For whatever reason, they remain convinced that a unilateral invasion resulting in thousands of casualties and a long-term American occupation can win the hearts and minds of an anti-Western, postcolonial citizenry wracked by ethnic factionalism.

I think execution was very important, but the idea that the insurgency and anti-Americanism is just a matter of poor postwar planning seems a bit myopic to me. Maybe I'm underestimating postwar planning, but the facile claim that Iraqis will feel "abandoned" if we withdraw troops in 2005 suggests that when it comes to understanding Iraqi hearts and minds, myopia is TNR's M.O.

Posted by: Shankar D | Aug 20, 2004 1:54:47 AM

The thing is though, most polls in Iraq last year showed pretty good margins favoring our presence there. THe fact that we've lost a lot of support is a matter of execution, not the idea itself. If the idea had been flawed from the start we would have seen worse polling numbers coming out of Iraq. Not to mention more violence. This insurgency is still small by historical standards. In places where an invader truly isn't wanted, you see attacks by insurgents in the thousands, sometimes even in set piece battles. We haven't seen attacks by more than a hundred at a time, and that only once every couple of months. Mostly it's still just less than a dozen of insurgents making a hit and run attack.

We can still accomplish the objective of democracy, and I find Matt and TNR's skepticism to be rather strange. The violence, when Sadr isn't acting up, is localized to the Sunni Triangle. Most Shiites don't support a theocracy, so there goes that fear.

I don't think we'll see Switzerland, but I think it's not unreasonable to expect Iraq to look a lot like Columbia by next year. Not great, but a damn sight better than Saddam Hussein.

Posted by: Adam Herman | Aug 20, 2004 7:43:14 AM

I think you guys may be missing the point with comments like 'Allawi is more popular than Sadr!'.

A democracy is not a winner take all situation. You could argue that Sadr is an opposition party being supressed by the majority party. When you are in a supposed democracy, one of the things that is somewhat frowned upon is using military force to, you know, kill the opposition parties. Especially frowned upon when you use foreign troops.

Ok, so these guys are not exactly the Whigs or anything. They are an armed militia. I am unaware of them doing anything but fairly straightforward guerilla warfare, ('bad things' such as kidnapping and cuicide bombing, for example) but hey, who am I to judge. I am sure George Washington had his forces described in pretty negative terms by the British at the time. (no, I am not comparing Sadr with Washington. I am merely showing that one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

So there is no black and white about it, but certainly there is an interest in supressing armed resistance movements. But who gets to decide which movements are 'terrorist organization' or 'armed resistance', or a valid politcal party? Allawi? The US?

So the dichotomy presented is, ok, we made Allawi sovereign, great, but does that mean we let him use the US army to supress his opposition?

Posted by: Chance the Gardener | Aug 20, 2004 9:21:55 AM

September 12th in Washington, DC must be THE GREAT PAYBACK for all Vietnam Vets.

Atrios shows us why September 12th in Washington, DC must be THE GREAT PAYBACK for all Vietnam Vets.

The NY Times and the Boston globe are calling our brothers liars. Now read this post on Atrios blog ESCHATON which spreads the idea that The Swifties are all liars:

"Shrapnel

What can you say about someone like Michelle "Little LuLu" Malkin suggesting that the shrapnel in Kerry's leg might come from a self-inflicted wound. While it is true that some Swift Boat Liars have suggested that the shrapnel could have come from Kerry's own weapon, it's a bit bizarre that Malkin would suggest that it was deliberately inflicted. The shrapnel is from a grenade. While it is true that people have wounded themselves in an attempt to get out of combat, it's hard to comprehend that very many of them have chosen to wound themselves with grenades.

The loathing these people have for everything America stands for is astounding. -Atrios"

http://atrios.blogspot.com/

John Kerry first declared war on Vietnam Vets thirty some years ago with his lies and:

KERRY LIED AND GOOD MEN DIED.

Kerry has declared war again today when he and his minions called the Swift Boat Vets, and by extension, ALL VIETNAM VETS, liars, so, again today,

KERRY LIES AND GOOD MEN ARE AGAIN DISHONORED.

I will use more posts from Atrios’ top rated blog, 80,000 visitors a day, to illustrate the effect of the KERRY KOOL-AID (it causes imbibers to see the truth as lies and lies as the truth) on the proto hominid brains of his most enthusiastic acolytes.

Firstly, a courageous conservative, bravely using her real name, restates an historic truth:

“Kerry on veterans: (they/he)"personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human general tassle, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, poisoned food stocks and ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam" John Kerry addressing the Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing April 22, 1971. Karen Schell”

A Kerry Kool-Aid drinker then intelligently responds:

“... and to extend my metaphor, karen schell and adrian spindle, et al., would be the drug dealers, gang leaders, and pimps we are saving them from. Cole the Younger” Here are some more cogent Kerry Kool-Aid comments:

“I JOINED THIS HAPPY FAMILY OF PROUD ATREIDES HOPING TO ENGAGE IN POLITE DEBATE OR PERHAPS ENQUIRY INTO THE IMPORTANT POLITICAL ISSUES OF THE DAY.

Does that mean that you are taking your delusional and illiterally rantings and leaving?

Go, don't let the door hit your considerable ass on the way out. Nancy Richardson”

“I wonder how long before the spitting, slobbering trolls appear.

This is likely to get a few of them really riled up.

Seeing as they don't like to be called to the carpet with thier own words. David (Austin Tx)”

“”And I do believe that Adrian is not a good Christian boy, since he's obviously lying here:

"Adrian Spidle Vietnam Era Vet” pie””

“…If I remember correctly folks in uniform were not loved much back then, so what. Patriotic if someone attacks me sure I'll fight, but Iraq no way.

What I can't comprehend now is this total worship of the military by some factions now. DOD budget 418 billion bucks. Why? little alex”

“Up the thread one "Adrian Spidle" gushes bibilo-sputum, and little else, then calls himself a "Viet Nam Era Vet."

I was just laughing at that when I saw Atrios (or someone feigning Atriosness) slamming Spidle (Spittle) on the same point I saw: oh "era" is it, got one of those basings like Gomer Pyle, USMC, or George W. Bush, AWOL, eh?

Then I thought, Spittle could, for all we know folks (and his sentence structure and vocab weighs heavily in favor of my conjecture), be some 11 year-old (bless his heart) just making up shit. * * *”

So my friends, John Kerry, Atrios, and their minions are doing their best to again dishonor the service of that part of our generation that honorably donned the uniforms our nation asked us to.

Listen, September 12th in DC is YOUR opportunity to finally get that GREAT PAYBACK you’ve longed for lo these many decades. Let’s make the defeat the lying John Kerry the LAST HURRAH of our much maligned and abused generation.

John Kerry made the Vietnam War the center piece of the convention and thus his campaign. We were there and we know he lied. A couple slightly younger friends of mine recently expressed surprise when I told them that I and two thirds of Vietnam vets can’t stand Kerry, They both thought that he was a hero of our generation. I ask you:

IS JOHN KERRY YOUR HERO?

If not, then duty calls you to show up in Washington on 9/12 for THE GREAT PAYBACK. This is not the time for our generation to go off meekly into the good night.

THIS IS, PERHAPS, THE LAST GREAT BATTLE OF OUR GENERATION!

If we can get a 100,000 or so veterans (and supporters) to mass in our nations capital, in support of our Swift Boat Brothers and shout together, at the top of our voices, that:

KERRY LIED AND GOOD MEN DIED

Then, how can the NY Times, Boston Globe, Atrios et al, get away with the BIG LIE that the most honorable Swift Boat Veterans lied.

SUPPORT OUR BROTHERS!

Make your plans and reservations NOW. I’ll be there with my wife and daughter, and we hope to meet you. My daughter told me that her enthusiastic participation in the VIETNAM VETS AGAINST KERRY demonstrations at the DNC in Boston was THE MOST EXCITING DAYS OF HER LIFE.

Join me and your brothers. We can CHANGE HISTORY.

The following links describe our experiences those nights at the DNC and include a few pictures I took of the situation:

http://pep.typepad.com/public_enquiry_project/2004/07/report_from_the.html

http://pep.typepad.com/public_enquiry_project/2004/07/report_from_the_1.html

http://pep.typepad.com/photos/viet_vets_at_the_dnc/index.html

That’s the truth about John Kerry. Now as for Atrios, here is the truth:

http://pep.typepad.com/public_enquiry_project/2004/08/atrios_shows_us.html


Posted by: Adrian Spidle | Aug 20, 2004 10:52:13 AM

September 12th in Washington, DC must be THE GREAT PAYBACK for all Vietnam Vets.

Atrios shows us why September 12th in Washington, DC must be THE GREAT PAYBACK for all Vietnam Vets.

The NY Times and the Boston globe are calling our brothers liars. Now read this post on Atrios blog ESCHATON which spreads the idea that The Swifties are all liars:

"Shrapnel

What can you say about someone like Michelle "Little LuLu" Malkin suggesting that the shrapnel in Kerry's leg might come from a self-inflicted wound. While it is true that some Swift Boat Liars have suggested that the shrapnel could have come from Kerry's own weapon, it's a bit bizarre that Malkin would suggest that it was deliberately inflicted. The shrapnel is from a grenade. While it is true that people have wounded themselves in an attempt to get out of combat, it's hard to comprehend that very many of them have chosen to wound themselves with grenades.

The loathing these people have for everything America stands for is astounding. -Atrios"

http://atrios.blogspot.com/

John Kerry first declared war on Vietnam Vets thirty some years ago with his lies and:

KERRY LIED AND GOOD MEN DIED.

Kerry has declared war again today when he and his minions called the Swift Boat Vets, and by extension, ALL VIETNAM VETS, liars, so, again today,

KERRY LIES AND GOOD MEN ARE AGAIN DISHONORED.

I will use more posts from Atrios’ top rated blog, 80,000 visitors a day, to illustrate the effect of the KERRY KOOL-AID (it causes imbibers to see the truth as lies and lies as the truth) on the proto hominid brains of his most enthusiastic acolytes.

Firstly, a courageous conservative, bravely using her real name, restates an historic truth:

“Kerry on veterans: (they/he)"personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human general tassle, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, poisoned food stocks and ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam" John Kerry addressing the Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing April 22, 1971. Karen Schell”

A Kerry Kool-Aid drinker then intelligently responds:

“... and to extend my metaphor, karen schell and adrian spindle, et al., would be the drug dealers, gang leaders, and pimps we are saving them from. Cole the Younger” Here are some more cogent Kerry Kool-Aid comments:

“I JOINED THIS HAPPY FAMILY OF PROUD ATREIDES HOPING TO ENGAGE IN POLITE DEBATE OR PERHAPS ENQUIRY INTO THE IMPORTANT POLITICAL ISSUES OF THE DAY.

Does that mean that you are taking your delusional and illiterally rantings and leaving?

Go, don't let the door hit your considerable ass on the way out. Nancy Richardson”

“I wonder how long before the spitting, slobbering trolls appear.

This is likely to get a few of them really riled up.

Seeing as they don't like to be called to the carpet with thier own words. David (Austin Tx)”

“”And I do believe that Adrian is not a good Christian boy, since he's obviously lying here:

"Adrian Spidle Vietnam Era Vet” pie””

“…If I remember correctly folks in uniform were not loved much back then, so what. Patriotic if someone attacks me sure I'll fight, but Iraq no way.

What I can't comprehend now is this total worship of the military by some factions now. DOD budget 418 billion bucks. Why? little alex”

“Up the thread one "Adrian Spidle" gushes bibilo-sputum, and little else, then calls himself a "Viet Nam Era Vet."

I was just laughing at that when I saw Atrios (or someone feigning Atriosness) slamming Spidle (Spittle) on the same point I saw: oh "era" is it, got one of those basings like Gomer Pyle, USMC, or George W. Bush, AWOL, eh?

Then I thought, Spittle could, for all we know folks (and his sentence structure and vocab weighs heavily in favor of my conjecture), be some 11 year-old (bless his heart) just making up shit. * * *”

So my friends, John Kerry, Atrios, and their minions are doing their best to again dishonor the service of that part of our generation that honorably donned the uniforms our nation asked us to.

Listen, September 12th in DC is YOUR opportunity to finally get that GREAT PAYBACK you’ve longed for lo these many decades. Let’s make the defeat the lying John Kerry the LAST HURRAH of our much maligned and abused generation.

John Kerry made the Vietnam War the center piece of the convention and thus his campaign. We were there and we know he lied. A couple slightly younger friends of mine recently expressed surprise when I told them that I and two thirds of Vietnam vets can’t stand Kerry, They both thought that he was a hero of our generation. I ask you:

IS JOHN KERRY YOUR HERO?

If not, then duty calls you to show up in Washington on 9/12 for THE GREAT PAYBACK. This is not the time for our generation to go off meekly into the good night.

THIS IS, PERHAPS, THE LAST GREAT BATTLE OF OUR GENERATION!

If we can get a 100,000 or so veterans (and supporters) to mass in our nations capital, in support of our Swift Boat Brothers and shout together, at the top of our voices, that:

KERRY LIED AND GOOD MEN DIED

Then, how can the NY Times, Boston Globe, Atrios et al, get away with the BIG LIE that the most honorable Swift Boat Veterans lied.

SUPPORT OUR BROTHERS!

Make your plans and reservations NOW. I’ll be there with my wife and daughter, and we hope to meet you. My daughter told me that her enthusiastic participation in the VIETNAM VETS AGAINST KERRY demonstrations at the DNC in Boston was THE MOST EXCITING DAYS OF HER LIFE.

Join me and your brothers. We can CHANGE HISTORY.

The following links describe our experiences those nights at the DNC and include a few pictures I took of the situation:

http://pep.typepad.com/public_enquiry_project/2004/07/report_from_the.html

http://pep.typepad.com/public_enquiry_project/2004/07/report_from_the_1.html

http://pep.typepad.com/photos/viet_vets_at_the_dnc/index.html

That’s the truth about John Kerry. Now as for Atrios, here is the truth:

http://pep.typepad.com/public_enquiry_project/2004/08/atrios_shows_us.html


Posted by: Adrian Spidle | Aug 20, 2004 10:54:12 AM

September 12th in Washington, DC must be THE GREAT PAYBACK for all Vietnam Vets.

Atrios shows us why September 12th in Washington, DC must be THE GREAT PAYBACK for all Vietnam Vets.

The NY Times and the Boston globe are calling our brothers liars. Now read this post on Atrios blog ESCHATON which spreads the idea that The Swifties are all liars:

"Shrapnel

What can you say about someone like Michelle "Little LuLu" Malkin suggesting that the shrapnel in Kerry's leg might come from a self-inflicted wound. While it is true that some Swift Boat Liars have suggested that the shrapnel could have come from Kerry's own weapon, it's a bit bizarre that Malkin would suggest that it was deliberately inflicted. The shrapnel is from a grenade. While it is true that people have wounded themselves in an attempt to get out of combat, it's hard to comprehend that very many of them have chosen to wound themselves with grenades.

The loathing these people have for everything America stands for is astounding. -Atrios"

http://atrios.blogspot.com/

John Kerry first declared war on Vietnam Vets thirty some years ago with his lies and:

KERRY LIED AND GOOD MEN DIED.

Kerry has declared war again today when he and his minions called the Swift Boat Vets, and by extension, ALL VIETNAM VETS, liars, so, again today,

KERRY LIES AND GOOD MEN ARE AGAIN DISHONORED.

I will use more posts from Atrios’ top rated blog, 80,000 visitors a day, to illustrate the effect of the KERRY KOOL-AID (it causes imbibers to see the truth as lies and lies as the truth) on the proto hominid brains of his most enthusiastic acolytes.

Firstly, a courageous conservative, bravely using her real name, restates an historic truth:

“Kerry on veterans: (they/he)"personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human general tassle, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, poisoned food stocks and ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam" John Kerry addressing the Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing April 22, 1971. Karen Schell”

A Kerry Kool-Aid drinker then intelligently responds:

“... and to extend my metaphor, karen schell and adrian spindle, et al., would be the drug dealers, gang leaders, and pimps we are saving them from. Cole the Younger” Here are some more cogent Kerry Kool-Aid comments:

“I JOINED THIS HAPPY FAMILY OF PROUD ATREIDES HOPING TO ENGAGE IN POLITE DEBATE OR PERHAPS ENQUIRY INTO THE IMPORTANT POLITICAL ISSUES OF THE DAY.

Does that mean that you are taking your delusional and illiterally rantings and leaving?

Go, don't let the door hit your considerable ass on the way out. Nancy Richardson”

“I wonder how long before the spitting, slobbering trolls appear.

This is likely to get a few of them really riled up.

Seeing as they don't like to be called to the carpet with thier own words. David (Austin Tx)”

“”And I do believe that Adrian is not a good Christian boy, since he's obviously lying here:

"Adrian Spidle Vietnam Era Vet” pie””

“…If I remember correctly folks in uniform were not loved much back then, so what. Patriotic if someone attacks me sure I'll fight, but Iraq no way.

What I can't comprehend now is this total worship of the military by some factions now. DOD budget 418 billion bucks. Why? little alex”

“Up the thread one "Adrian Spidle" gushes bibilo-sputum, and little else, then calls himself a "Viet Nam Era Vet."

I was just laughing at that when I saw Atrios (or someone feigning Atriosness) slamming Spidle (Spittle) on the same point I saw: oh "era" is it, got one of those basings like Gomer Pyle, USMC, or George W. Bush, AWOL, eh?

Then I thought, Spittle could, for all we know folks (and his sentence structure and vocab weighs heavily in favor of my conjecture), be some 11 year-old (bless his heart) just making up shit. * * *”

So my friends, John Kerry, Atrios, and their minions are doing their best to again dishonor the service of that part of our generation that honorably donned the uniforms our nation asked us to.

Listen, September 12th in DC is YOUR opportunity to finally get that GREAT PAYBACK you’ve longed for lo these many decades. Let’s make the defeat the lying John Kerry the LAST HURRAH of our much maligned and abused generation.

John Kerry made the Vietnam War the center piece of the convention and thus his campaign. We were there and we know he lied. A couple slightly younger friends of mine recently expressed surprise when I told them that I and two thirds of Vietnam vets can’t stand Kerry, They both thought that he was a hero of our generation. I ask you:

IS JOHN KERRY YOUR HERO?

If not, then duty calls you to show up in Washington on 9/12 for THE GREAT PAYBACK. This is not the time for our generation to go off meekly into the good night.

THIS IS, PERHAPS, THE LAST GREAT BATTLE OF OUR GENERATION!

If we can get a 100,000 or so veterans (and supporters) to mass in our nations capital, in support of our Swift Boat Brothers and shout together, at the top of our voices, that:

KERRY LIED AND GOOD MEN DIED

Then, how can the NY Times, Boston Globe, Atrios et al, get away with the BIG LIE that the most honorable Swift Boat Veterans lied.

SUPPORT OUR BROTHERS!

Make your plans and reservations NOW. I’ll be there with my wife and daughter, and we hope to meet you. My daughter told me that her enthusiastic participation in the VIETNAM VETS AGAINST KERRY demonstrations at the DNC in Boston was THE MOST EXCITING DAYS OF HER LIFE.

Join me and your brothers. We can CHANGE HISTORY.

The following links describe our experiences those nights at the DNC and include a few pictures I took of the situation:

http://pep.typepad.com/public_enquiry_project/2004/07/report_from_the.html

http://pep.typepad.com/public_enquiry_project/2004/07/report_from_the_1.html

http://pep.typepad.com/photos/viet_vets_at_the_dnc/index.html

That’s the truth about John Kerry. Now as for Atrios, here is the truth:

http://pep.typepad.com/public_enquiry_project/2004/08/atrios_shows_us.html


Posted by: Adrian Spidle | Aug 20, 2004 10:56:07 AM

Arm-chair generals. Ike promised to get us out of Korea. (He didn't. It has remained a quagmire for 54 years.)

All of these "we need to stay tough" guys are talking through their beenies.

Posted by: Jeffrey Davis | Aug 20, 2004 11:29:55 AM

Um, where does Beinart get the idea that Sadr is more popular than Allawi? Two polls showed that Allawai was MUCH more popular than Sadr.

I've never seen such a poll. The last one I saw was in May and it gave Sadr a 67% approval rate which beats the crap out of W's ratings here.

Anyway, the acid test is who is going to die for Allawi? Sadr's people will die for him, but somehow I doubt too many people are going to die for the U.S. puppet when push comes to shove.

Posted by: absynthe | Aug 20, 2004 12:16:53 PM

ok, now can we ban adrian spidle?

Posted by: praktike | Aug 20, 2004 2:06:12 PM

Somebody (up above the torrent of Spittle vomit) commented that there have been few large-scale attacks on US forces. That could be well explained by the fact that such attacks would be really, really dangerous. Fighting large-scale conventional war is what the US Army, Marines and Air Force are trained and equipped for. Against forces like those, small-unit hit and run is better (or at least survivable).

Posted by: Barry | Aug 20, 2004 2:35:55 PM

"Anyway, the acid test is who is going to die for Allawi? Sadr's people will die for him, but somehow I doubt too many people are going to die for the U.S. puppet when push comes to shove."

800 Iraqi police and soldiers have died for their country fighting terrorists and insurgents.

Posted by: Adam Herman | Aug 21, 2004 1:50:39 AM

I guess Adrian hasn't heard that the Toledo Blade won a Pulitzer Prize this year for a series of articles about Tiger Force, a band of American soldiers who ravaged the countryside of Vietnam, raping, killing, maiming, cutting off ears and genitals for souvenirs, and so on.

It's true. It happened. The Army started investigating it, then closed the investigation. An Army investigator, possibly feeling guilty about the whitewash, bequeathed the investigatory papers to a Blade reporter in his will.

So what John Kerry said was true. The soldiers who were sent to Vietnam walked into a situation where atrocities were inevitable, given the circumstances that the politicians and generals created. Those soldiers -- the ones who are alive today -- still suffer from the memories of what they've done, I'm sure. Kerry never said everyone committed atrocities. But he was right. Atrocities happened. Violations of the laws of war happened.

If you say those atrocities didn't happen, you're a liar.

Posted by: Holden | Aug 21, 2004 2:59:48 AM

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