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Watery Border
Forget the blatant contradiction, where does John O'Neil get off saying "There isn't any watery border" between Vietnam and Cambodia. Look it up on a map if you care to -- there seem to be several such watery borders. If the idea is supposed to be that the Cambodian government had the border under some kind of airtight seal in 1968, read here and you'll see that the country was in a state of chaos at the time.
UPDATE: Now, you know, I don't really care that O'Neil told some kind of lie about being in Cambodia (his smears against Kerry I care about). My first love, though, is not politics, but geography, and it pains me to see this kind of misinformation put out there.
August 26, 2004 | Permalink
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Comments
There was a time in this country when a person like O'Neil could have been handled with dispatch directly by the man whose honor had been soiled. At sunrise, with only their seconds present.
President Andrew Jackson killed many a man for less.
But today a liar can freely disparage and denegrate an honorable man without consequences. It just doesn't seem right.
Posted by: dc | Aug 26, 2004 3:39:49 AM
That's what I thought; thanks for doing my homework for me. Of course, fat chance any of the talking heads would happen to know anything about geography, or failing prior knowledge, be inclined to study it when people make a big deal out of such things...
Posted by: BW | Aug 26, 2004 3:49:44 AM
got your mind off the middle east, tho.
Posted by: degustibus | Aug 26, 2004 4:07:13 AM
I guess that puts an end to the "controversy" about the geography of Vietnam. Hey wait a minute! Are those Kerry's initials on that map?
BTW Matt, do you know when was that map published? The border has been a matter of contention between the two governments, and I would not be surprised if it was different back when Kerry was there.
Posted by: synykyl | Aug 26, 2004 4:11:10 AM
O'Neill has now tried to explain himself on "Hannity and Colmes", and the results have gotten even stranger.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/003337.php :
"ALAN COLMES: Look, this issue of Cambodia, you said, on George Stephanopoulos' show over the weekend that you knew that Kerry was not in Cambodia, that you could not have been in Cambodia on a swift boat, that he didn't go north of Sadak (ph). They just didn't go that far. You were 15 miles away.
"There's a tape of you, as you now know, in the Oval Office, saying you were in Cambodia, you said to Richard Nixon. You worked along the border, or you were in Cambodia.
"That seems very different than being 15 miles away and saying the swift boats didn't go to Cambodia. So they can't both be true.
"O'NEILL: Alan, yes, they are, Alan. It's two different places, Alan. One place is along the Mekong River, right in the heart of the delta. The second place is on the west coast of Cambodia at a place called Hatien (ph), where the boundary is right along that border.
"Where Kerry was in Christmas of 1968 was on this river, the Mekong River. We got about 40 or 50 miles from the border. That's as close as we ran.
"Later, Kerry went, and I went to a place called Bernique's (ph) Creek -- that was our nickname for it -- at Hatien (ph). That was a canal system that ran close to the border, but that wasn't at Christmas for Kerry. That was later for him.
"So it's two separate places, Alan, and the story is correct.
"COLMES: All right. Well, either you were in Cambodia or Kerry was in Cambodia and you claim he wasn't in Cambodia. You claimed at one point you weren't and then you claimed you were. This is very confusing to people.
"O'NEILL: Well, it shouldn't be confused. I was never in Cambodia, and Kerry lied when he said he was in Cambodia.
"COLMES: You said to Richard Nixon you were in Cambodia.
"O'NEILL: And it was the turning point of his life.
"COLMES: You said to Richard Nixon, I was in Cambodia, sir.'
"HANNITY: On the border.
"COLMES: There's a tape of you saying that to Richard Nixon.
"O'NEILL: What's the next sentence? I was along the Cambodian border. That's exactly right. What I told Nixon and was trying to tell him in this meeting was I was along the Cambodian border. As Sean clearly read...
"COLMES: 'I was in Cambodia,' Those are your words.
"O'NEILL: Yes, but you missed the next sentence. You're not reading the next sentence, Alan.
"COLMES: Yes, along the border. But you're in Cambodia or you're not in Cambodia.
"O'NEILL: Well, I'm sorry, Alan. I wasn't -- I was talking in a conversation."
__________________________________________
OK. So O'Neill is now saying that:
(1) When he told Nixon he was "in Cambodia", he REALLY meant he was in a place right next to the border of Cambodia where covert cross-over excursions would have been extremely easy -- but he never actually did any, nosirree, even if he did tell Nixon otherwise.
(2) Kerry was in the same place, presumably for the same reason, but --
(3) Kerry wasn't there at Christmas 1968 -- so Kerry's a horrible liar, nyah nyah!
This, really, is getting to be a bit much. At this point, one might call it The Incredible Shrinking Scandal.
Posted by: Bruce Moomaw | Aug 26, 2004 5:08:31 AM
Moving on to another related subject: take a look at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A34024-2004Aug25.html , in which a man who claims to be a longtime friend of Bob Dole -- and who definitely served for three years as one of Nixon's assistants and five years as Reagan's Assistant Defense Secretary and director of special military planning -- says flatly that Dole is foully besmirching himself by smearing Kerry under pressure from Bush, after earlier resisting such pressures from Charles Colson while all of them were working for Nixon:
"It is hurtful that those who served in Vietnam are being split in so vile a fashion, and that the wounds of that war are reopened at the instigation of people who avoided serving at all. It is hurtful that a man of Bob Dole's stature should lend himself to the effort to dishonor a fellow American veteran in the service of politics at its cheapest.
"There was a time when he would have refused. I know. I was there."
Holy cow.
Posted by: Bruce Moomaw | Aug 26, 2004 5:15:15 AM
And O'Neill strikes again!
http://www.tnr.com/blog/campaignjournal?pid=1962 :
"While we're on the subject of O'Neill lying, to get a sense of just how dirty he plays, compare the way he describes what John Kerry was doing on the morning of March 13, 1969 with the account in Michael Dobbs's careful examination of the subject in Sunday's Washington Post.
"O'Neill on 'Hannity and Colmes' last night: '[Kerry]'s admitted first he actually wounded himself in a very minor way when he was playing around with a grenade that morning when he was throwing it around, throwing it in a rice field.'
"Dobbs on Sunday: 'As they were heading back to the boat, Kerry and Rassmann decided to blow up a five-ton rice bin to deny food to the Vietcong. In an interview last week, Rassmann recalled that they climbed on top of the huge pile and dug a hole in the rice. On the count of three, they tossed their grenades into the hole and ran.
'Evidently, Kerry did not run fast enough. "He got some frags and pieces of rice in his rear end," Rassmann said with a laugh. "It was more embarrassing than painful." '
"While on a dangerous mission with a Special Forces officer Kerry was injured destroying a cache of Vietcong rice. In O'Neill's hands this is turned into a story about Kerry harming himself while 'playing around with a grenade...in a rice field.' O'Neill is a disgrace."
Posted by: Bruce Moomaw | Aug 26, 2004 5:41:00 AM
For years, John "Seared Seared" Kerry says he was "in" Cambodia. Challenged, he says he was in the "watery borders" of Cambodia. To you guys, they're the same thing.
Mom asks, "John, are you in the bathtub"? John, along the border of the bathtub, says "yes." Silly mom, she thinks John was lying.
Joe asks John, "Have you ever ridden in a Jaguar"? John, having driven next to and walked alongside a Jaguar, says "yes." Silly Joe, he thinks John was lying.
And you guys think W is stupid?
Posted by: ostap | Aug 26, 2004 7:42:58 AM
And since you guys are soooooooo good at parsing, please tell me how it was that John "Seared Seared" Kerry wasn't lying when he said a couple of years ago that he was in Vietnam in April 1968.
http://www.vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php?speech_id=4724&keyword=seared&phrase=&contain=
Admit it guys, he's a liar.
Posted by: ostap | Aug 26, 2004 7:56:50 AM
I believe this is the relevant map. Look at the waterway named Rach Giang Thanh in the lower left corner, along the border. I believe this is the waterway he was patrolling on Christmas Eve/Christmas, but I don't have time to confirm now. Here is the index map for the region.
Posted by: Tom DC/VA | Aug 26, 2004 7:57:47 AM
I'll admit Kerry lied about where he was on December 24, 1968 when you admit Bush lied about WMDs and the Iraq/Al Qaeda connection repeatedly in 2002 and 2003, and Cheney has done so in 2002, 2003, and 2004. Which lie do you think is more relevant to this campaign, and why?
Posted by: Tom DC/VA | Aug 26, 2004 8:09:41 AM
SBV has been totally debunked, its time to sue for libel and move on.
Its also time to focus on Abu Ghraib, which is clearly relevant to the current world situation. The reports of this week point both to heavily Military Intel involvement and several unexplained visits from NSC staff, which implies whitehouse knoweldge, approval, and pressure while abuse was ongoing, not to mention the sheer volume of manipulation required to create the situation.
Its time for an investigation with subpeona power. Its been obvious that Abu Ghraib was sanctioned right from the executive office on down. Team Bush can either claim callous negligence and incompetence, which is how the schlesinger report painted the picture, or they can be shown to have malice and criminal responsibility which is the occam's razor solution.
Either way this has way more relevance to reality than some well funded professional liars group who media connections allow them to fill air time. Its time for the Kerry campaign to change the tone, by highlighting the vast failures of Bush foreign Policy and domestic agenda, repeatedly.
Posted by: patience | Aug 26, 2004 8:26:59 AM
but but his wife ketchup winter soldier raise taxes arghghghgaghgh sad;lfk437 -34 08
-- Buffer Overflow --
Posted by: praktike | Aug 26, 2004 8:27:42 AM
Keep at it guys, Nail that bastard O'Neil for lying about being in Cambodia. It really shows his lack of credibility.
Posted by: Reg | Aug 26, 2004 8:54:09 AM
Interesting response: change the subject.
And have you noticed there’s a pattern here: “Ah, Christmas of ’68. I remember it well. I was sitting on my boat in Cambodia ….” “Ah, April of ’68. I remember it well. I was sitting on my boat in Vietnam ….”
I can hardly wait for the new revelations: “Ach, when I heard Kennedy had been shot. I remember it well. I was sitting on my boat in Vietnam….” “Ah, when the Berlin Wall fell. I remember it well. I was sitting on my boat in Vietnam ….” “Ah, when I first met my wife. I remember it well. I was sitting on my boat in Vietnam. She was in the rice paddy. Those firm thighs, that sweet smile, those sparkling eyes, those millions of bucks bulging from her pockets ….”
Posted by: ostap | Aug 26, 2004 9:02:34 AM
Aaahhh, the sweet smell of the shrill. Thank you ostap, sincerely.
Word to praktike re "but...08" and yes, nail O'Neil. I try to remind my father of O'Neil's Nixon connections and it's working pretty well. But who knows? But I'm tuning to Sistani developments in Iraq. I think the libel claim against O'Neil is real, but complicated, so there's little to be gained that would be helpful in the horserace. Perhaps it'll be interesting to see in 2005 whether O'Neil and others are officially ordered to pay amends, but these things take time. I mean at FERC we're still trying to make Enron pay in full for wreaking havoc on California and the Northwest in 2000. It's laughable, but these things take time.
Posted by: fnook | Aug 26, 2004 9:11:18 AM
Check these out:
http://www.jregrassroots.org/jre/
http://sciencepolitics.blogspot.com/
Posted by: coturnix | Aug 26, 2004 9:21:44 AM
Wow, the trolls (like this "ostap" person) are well versed in the latest Freeper anti-Kerry campfire songs, but of course these "songs" are bereft of any facts:
Kerry was in fact on a ship (or "boat") deployed in the Vietnam Theater of Operation in April, 1968.
From his service record:
June 8, 1967 – Kerry reports to USS Gridley-serves in several capacities.
February 9, 1968 – USS Gridley departs for a Western Pacific (WESTPAC) deployment, to engage in operations in support of the Vietnam War. Ship spends time in the Gulf of Tonkin off North Vietnam, at Subic Bay in the Philippines and in Wellington, New Zealand.
February 10, 1968 – Kerry requests duty in Vietnam He lists his first preference for a position as an officer in charge of a Swift Boat (designated PCF for Patrol Craft Fast), his second as an officer in a patrol boat (designated PBR, for Patrol Boat River) squadron.
May 27, 1968 – USS Gridley sets sail for the US.
Of course, any facts contradicting the Freeper campfire song du jour are obviously Liberal lies, right?
Posted by: mat | Aug 26, 2004 9:32:24 AM
Well, Matt's officially a hack.
The gap has closed a tiny, tiny bit.
O'Neill being in, on the border, et cetera of Cambodia during a later period of time differs from Kerry making specfic claims about his being 'five miles' into Cambodian waters in substantive ways.
By way of analogy it's the difference between a US soldier saying they were in East Germany in 1988 compared to late 1989-1990.
While googling maps and trying to read them is fun, here's a site - http://pcf45.com/ - that is, from what I can tell, a non-partisan site about Swift Boats in Vietnam that's been around a while. Before the election, before SBVfT. To my eye, it's one of those veteran 'let's remember' sites and it's about Swift Boats and Vietnam.
Looking through it, you will find that Swift boat operations 'along and into' Cambodia took place while O'Neill was in Vietnam, but not while Kerry was in Vietnam.
So, O'Neill's story checks out. His conversation with Nixon is also appropriate and accurate. For the sake of argument, river border tend to end in the middle of the river.
Also, as O'Neill pointed out, he was in a completely different area of operation with regard to Cambodia from where Kerry was during the time Kerry claimed to be in/near/around Cambodia.
Kerry's claims are changing (again) and despite the wishful posting of Matt et al it's turning out that the 'LIES' of the Swift Vets are in fact not lies.
Meanwhile Kerry's flacks are still trying to figur out how to piece his stories together.
Posted by: MYGoodness | Aug 26, 2004 9:33:44 AM
You fucking moonbats say O'Niell is a liar and John effin Kerry isn't?!
Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
O'Niell isn't running for President, John effin Kerry is!
Posted by: Usamabinlazylately | Aug 26, 2004 9:37:57 AM
Matthew, man, you need a better class of troll around this place.
Posted by: Bgno64 | Aug 26, 2004 9:41:36 AM
O'Niell isn't running for President, John effin Kerry is!
Why is it so many Freepers can't even spell correctly?
Posted by: Bgno64 | Aug 26, 2004 9:42:21 AM
Let the Freeper trolls continue to stroke themselves. Eventualy, while they will continiue feel pleasure, nothing will come out.
Posted by: Joe Dokes | Aug 26, 2004 9:43:51 AM
Mathew, why don't you blog on how the democrats are hypocritical on the issue of lawyers?
"Ginsberg said in an interview with The Associated Press on Tuesday that he didn't advise the veterans group on strategy, nor did he tell the Bush campaign or the group what he discussed with the other.
In his letter to Bush, Ginsberg accused the media of a "stunning double standard" regarding the activities of groups supporting and opposing Kerry.
Law firms on the Democratic side are also representing both the campaign or party and outside groups running ads in the presidential race. Washington attorney Joe Sandler represents the Democratic National Committee and a group airing anti-Bush ads, MoveOn.org.
DNC spokesman Jano Cabrera said that "isn't even comparable" to Ginsberg's relationship with the Bush campaign and veterans group."
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040826/D84MK0K80.html
Talking out of both sides of your mouths, what a democrat does best!
Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Posted by: Usamabinlazylately | Aug 26, 2004 9:44:18 AM
"My first love, though, is not politics, but geography, and it pains me to see this kind of misinformation put out there."
lol
Posted by: praktike | Aug 26, 2004 9:51:28 AM
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