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Mmm...crow
Ed Kilgore suggests that in light of the rather stark disparities between different polls, someone is going to turn out to be wrong, and "there's gonna be a whole lotta crow on the menu of some pollsters" after the election. I doubt it. Virtually no pollsters called the 2000 election correctly and many called it very wrongly. Gallup was furthest off the mark among major groups and that had, as far as I can tell, no impact whatsoever on either their 2004 methodology or their standing as the leading name in American polling. The trouble is that, for media polls, like Gallup, NYT/CBS, ABC/WaPo, etc., the incentives are all wrong. The polls are conducted in order to sell newspapers or attract viewers to television programs. As a result methods, like the Gallup LV model, that seem to exaggerate the effect of opinion swings, are actually preferable to accurate methods since they build the drama. In general, no one has any real incentive to get things right and everyone does have various incentives polling in other directions (if nothing else, there's always incentive to minimize costs). Hence, in the abstract one can and should characterize the market in media polling as badly out-of-whack. The historical evidence, moreover, reflects quite poorly on pollsters. Just about everyone correctly predicted that Bill Clinton would win in 1996, but pretty heavily overestimated his margin of victory. In 2000 almost all polls called the popular vote for Bush.
October 19, 2004 | Permalink
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Comments
Gallop’s poll results, Oct 26, 2000: Bush 52 Gore 39
Note: Gore went on to win the popular vote.
Posted by: MattB | Oct 19, 2004 4:23:40 PM
I thought a major portion of a pollster's revenue involved private polling, for candidates and especially corporations. Market research. And credibility mattered.
Posted by: bob mcmanus | Oct 19, 2004 4:26:34 PM
Lies, damned lies and polling data.
I'm sick to death of this obsession with polls. Do us a favor, take the pledge: I will no longer report on polls because poll numbers and .75 cents will get you a cup of coffee. The only poll that matters is the one on November 2. Until then it's all guess work.
Posted by: Jeff | Oct 19, 2004 4:44:59 PM
Final polls in 2000:
CBS: Gore +1
Gallup: Bush +2
TIPP: Bush +2
Zogby: Gore +2
CBS was actually closest to the outcome, Gore +0.5. The interesting thing is that everybody, without exception, had Nader 1 to 2 points higher than his actual total. The other thing is the godawful results of some of the "machine" pollsters. Scott Rasmussen was like 7 points off for his "Portrait of America" poll, now renamed "Rasmussen report." I think voter.com was machine administed too, and it was 5 points off. Be interesting to see if they've gotten better. SurveyUSA did pretty well during the primaries. As for the performance of the big media polls, asking any poll to get margins right within 2 or 3 percent is probably asking too much. There's just too much random variation.
Posted by: rd | Oct 19, 2004 4:46:07 PM
Also, be on the lookout for the election eve Harris poll. Last year they piled up a ridiculous sample size, tens of thousands, and were pretty much right on the money (predicting a 48/48 tie).
Posted by: rd | Oct 19, 2004 4:50:27 PM
The polls certainly are all wrong: no sane person will vote for Bush - that's obvious - and how many demented voters could be out there? 2%? OK, to be on the safe side, let's say 5%.
I hereby predict: Kerry - 94%, Bush - 5%, Nader - 1%. End of story.
Posted by: abb1 | Oct 19, 2004 5:14:34 PM
You can get a cup of coffee for $.75?
Posted by: Big Daddy | Oct 19, 2004 5:19:42 PM
You can get a cup of coffee for $.75?
Posted by: Big Daddy | October 19, 2004 05:19 PM
Perhaps not. But you can buy any kind of poll results you want.
Posted by: Jeff | Oct 19, 2004 5:36:27 PM
In general, no one has any real incentive to get things right and everyone does have various incentives polling in other directions (if nothing else, there's always incentive to minimize costs).
Not quite right. The candidates themselves certainly want the most accurate figures; so might, e.g., Wall Street types who anticipate a short-term swing depending on the ultimate results. However, these people all have an interest in their opponents not having the same information, so it never becomes public (without a leak).
Posted by: Shelby | Oct 19, 2004 5:47:28 PM
I don't think you've made the case that polls do not have an incentive to be correct. Ultimately, the poll that gets right has credibility and the one that gets it wrong loses credibility. Dollars follow credibility. There may be other incentives, but that's the long lasting one.
Posted by: Slothrop | Oct 19, 2004 6:02:45 PM
As a matter of fact, most of the polls were wrong in 2000. Yet none of those people are out of business. Polling is a game. Polls are always taken with a specific result in mind. Polls are used to sway opinion not reflect it.
Posted by: Jeff | Oct 19, 2004 6:16:02 PM
A distaste for crow isn't limited to pollsters. I recall that a, um, certain blogger predicted that Kerry would bomb in the debates.
Posted by: A different Matt | Oct 19, 2004 6:23:45 PM
I believe Zogby would be the exception that proves your 'rule'. For perspective (from his website): "in 1996, John Zogby came within one-tenth of 1 percent of the presidential result." His tracking poll is the one to watch.
and, FWIW, does your intuition tell you that this race is really close? does it tell you that neither candidate is really close to 50%? If so, look at Zogby's current tracking poll here. It will confirm your intuition.
Posted by: Edo | Oct 19, 2004 6:26:45 PM
Polls take on added significance this year because of Rove's intention to steal the election by any means necessary. There have already been an alarming number of GOP-sponsored attempts to suppress the vote. If the polls predict a strong showing for Kerry, that makes Rove's task more difficult. Kerry will need to win this by a substantial margin to gain the White House.
Posted by: peter jung | Oct 19, 2004 6:30:52 PM
If you just take the polls as part of the media, and think about the media's combination of bias and incompetence, it would seem that it would be possible to do something about it. At the consumer level by boycotting media and their advertisers, and at the government level (if Kerry wins) by closing off the access media live by.
It should be easy to compile a list of reporters/ pundits who peddled the RNC talking points right on schedule, and make it a firing offense to talk to any of them.
Along with giving access to good media(the carrot), od couse. There would still be holdovers and disgruntleds talking to the bad guys, but some Rovian message discipline would be a good thing.
As for the polls per se, all I can think of is loudly publicizing their big errors.
Posted by: Zizka | Oct 19, 2004 6:45:17 PM
"Polls take on added significance this year because of Rove's intention to steal the election by any means necessary."
This is a given. But with most polls showing pretty much the same 50/50 split, how are they supposed to expose any additional malfeasance?
Polls only matter in presidential politics (in the candidates' minds) because of the electoral college. Get rid of that, and idiotic things like the New Hampshire primary and Iowa caucuses, "swing" states, and $200 million campaigns cease to matter.
Posted by: Jeff | Oct 19, 2004 7:04:30 PM
"Hence, in the abstract one can and should characterize the market in media polling as badly out-of-whack."
The polls aren't that bad. The real problem is that almost nobody in the media understands how to read the polls.
Posted by: Petey | Oct 19, 2004 7:07:35 PM
Reading the Polls
There are two sets of polls out there telling two different stories.
Zogby, Rasmussen, CBS/NYT, WSJ/NBC and TIPP all show a race that has shifted to a tie after the debates, with enough undecideds to go to the challenger that Kerry would win rather easily if the election were held today.
Gallup, Fox, and WaPo/ABC show a race where Bush has the support to win if the election were held today.
Gallup and TIPP are both pretty loopy polls. Rasmussen does robocalls. Zogby and CBS/NYT have been left of center all election season. Fox has been right of center all season.
WaPo/ABC is worrisome, but they're the outlier. The actual reality right now is somewhere between the easy Kerry win of Zogby and CBS/NYT, and the close Kerry win of WSJ/NBC.
But, of course, most folks won't vote for another two weeks.
Bush has a shot, but he faces a real uphill struggle in getting to 49% in the short time left. Kerry wins this race 2 out of 3 times.
Posted by: Petey | Oct 19, 2004 8:08:16 PM
it's probably worth noting that the one poll that did the best job in 2000, the florida exit polls, took the most political heat. The problem was that the poll got it right, since everyone knew who they intended to vote for, as opposed to what the machines/chads/computers thought.
Posted by: dfinberg | Oct 19, 2004 8:15:24 PM
One More Poll Note:
A significant minority of polls have shown a reversed gender gap of late.
Odd things are afoot, and the race could easily end up not being close either way at the end.
Posted by: Petey | Oct 19, 2004 8:19:43 PM
Petey, the reversed gender gap is inexplicable to me. How could there be a sudden shift of women to Bush, and a sudden, simultaneous shift of men to Kerry? Utterly bizarre.
I think you're also right about where the race really is right now. But I don't know what's going on with the WaPo tracking poll. Their LV numbers jumped up for Bush over the past few days, but their RV numbers had stayed very stable, shifting only from 48-47 Kerry to 48-47 Bush within the past 5 days, so I figured it was something screwy with how they were screening for LVs. But, today, suddenly it's 50-46 Bush among RVs.
Posted by: Haggai | Oct 19, 2004 8:30:39 PM
"Petey, the reversed gender gap is inexplicable to me."
Kerry talks tough about killing terrorists and his military record, and he's going to shoot animals this week. Bush talks about education and does his wonderful weepy Gerson moments.
Bush could also end up getting close to 20% of the black vote and still lose this election.
The ironic thing is that if they hadn't invaded Iraq, Rove's plan of realigning the country really could've happened.
Posted by: Petey | Oct 19, 2004 8:45:38 PM
A poll is no better than the weighting factors that it gives to its raw data.
Posted by: raj | Oct 19, 2004 9:14:34 PM
I suggest the Iowa Electronic Markets...
http://128.255.244.60/graphs/graph_Pres04_WTA.cfm
Bush: ~$0.60
Kerry: ~$0.40
The claim is that the Iowa Electronic Markets have been better at predicting the results of presidential elections than polling companies since 1988. Of course, they only have markets in the popular vote.
TradeSports.com has Bush electoral win at 59 to Kerry win at 41.9.
Posted by: Thomas | Oct 19, 2004 10:23:13 PM
"You can get a cup of coffee for $.75?"
Think 7/11. Coffee, nachos, and delicious gator gum.
Posted by: MooCow | Oct 19, 2004 10:33:26 PM
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