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A Tale of Two Stars

Went to the Wizards game tonight, and got home to learn that the official story is that LeBron is a golden god but just didn't have the kind of quality supporting cast that helped Gilbert Arenas lead his team to victory. There's no question that Antwan Jamieson and Larry Hughes played better than the 2nd and 3rd players on the Cavs, but did King James really do better than Arenas?

Looking over the box score we see that James had 6 rebounds to Arenas' 4, while Arenas had 9 assists to LeBron's 6. The difference between a small forward and a point guard. James scored 38 points in 48 minutes of play (0.792 points per minute), which is better than Arenas' 33 points in 46 minutes (0.717 points per minute). But James took 33 field goal attempts to reach that figure, Arenas only had 16. James shot 1-6 from behind the arc, Arenas was 2-3. Both took eight free throws, but James only hit five to Arenas' seven. Arenas, in other words, scored 2.06 points per shot while James had just 1.15 points per shot. On top of that, Arenas had a block (James had none), and only committed one foul to James' three.

Now arguably all this just reflects the fact that LeBron plays on a generally crappy team, so he's forced to shoot all the time even in lots of low-percentage situations. But equally arguably, this is a player who's taking too many shots and missing opportunities to use his superstar skills to create shots for the rest of the team. The Cavs' second- and third-best players aren't as good as the 'Zards 2 and 3, but they have a deeper team overall. Substandard 3 point and free throw shooting, in particular, lose close games.

April 16, 2005 | Permalink

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Comments

"but did King James really do better than Arenas?"

Arenas definitely had beat James on the count of scoring efficiency, but in basketball, unlike in baseball, the boxscore rarely tells the whole story.

Back in the year Iverson led the Sixers to the finals, you'd often look at his boxscore and see these awful looking 7-28 FG, 5 TO lines. But the Sixers would've won the game, and if you'd been watching, you'd have seen that Iverson was perfectly playing within the team's offensive scheme, and that he'd been the best player on the floor.

So, not having actually seen the Wizards/Cavs game, I'm unqualified to say who outplayed whom. But I will say that if I had to plug one of the two guys into my team for next season, I'd pick LBJ over Arenas. (And I say that as an Arenas fan. Last week, I referred to him as the poor man's Iverson - which is high praise.)

And here's hoping it ends up as a Bulls/Wizards series in the first round - two very young and very entertaining teams. I'd give the Wizards the edge because of the Bulls injury woes. But beware Ben Gordon in the 4th quarter. The guy is a cold-blooded assassin.

Posted by: Petey | Apr 16, 2005 1:34:40 AM

Isn't Lebron James, like, ten years old or something?

Posted by: praktike | Apr 16, 2005 1:45:26 AM

I'm also a fan of Arenas, but if you look at the their season stats, James is shooting 47.5% from the field (which is shockingly good, given his position, how crappy his team is, and how much he shoots), and Arenas is shooting 42.6%, which isn't terrible, but ain't great. James has him beat in other categories too, and like praktike says, he's only eight years old.

Posted by: ogged | Apr 16, 2005 1:49:23 AM

Ok, ok, your point is that the narrative is fixed in advance, and although Arenas outplayed James tonight, that's not reflected in the official story, which makes these narratives and reputations hard to correct. Granted. (Though it reminds me of one of Bob Costas's finer moments, when someone he had on was saying that Michael Jordan had a great reputation because he had the best publicist. This was at the end of the season, so Costas got to respond with, "Well, Jordan's publicist will be happy to know that Michael just won his sixth consecutive scoring title..."

Posted by: ogged | Apr 16, 2005 1:53:08 AM

Ogged, did you ever look at any of the bball links I gave you?

I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that if player A outplays player B in one game, but player B is having a better season that player B is the better player.

As for LeBron there was some interesting stats thrown around today on the apbrmetrics board

"Having accounted for all known rebound, assist, and scoring rates, for all players in all eras, I'd say Lebron's present numbers are pretty elite.

Per-36-minute and relative to 100 pt/ 44 reb games, there are 575 player-seasons with as good or better assist rates than LeBron's 6.88

Of these 575, only 15 were accompanied by more relative rebounds: 7 times by Magic Johnson, twice each by Darrell Walker and Tom Boerwinkle, once each by Oscar, Jordan, Kidd, and Grant Hill.

Of those 15, all of one surpassed Lebron in each area: Michael Jordan's 1988-89 season.

Of course, it favors a chosen player to select exactly his numbers for comparison. Darrell Walker was nobody's idea of a superstar; yet he places himself in elite company by similar queries.

Using a "versatility index" defined as V = sqrt (sco*reb*ast) , Lebron's year ranks #50 alltime; behind 11 of Magic's seasons, 6 by Kareem and Bird, 5 by Karl Malone, 4 by Wilt, 3 by Barkley and Oscar, 2 by Garnett, Hill, Jordan, and Shaq, 1 each by Duncan, McGinnis, Robinson, and Walton.

There's not a fluke or a slacker in that group. All are Hall-o-Famers, except the enigmatic McGinnis."

Posted by: NickS | Apr 16, 2005 2:07:03 AM

Matt, you talk basketball funny. You don't need to list every stat in the box score (and a few not in the box score). Just say something like: "...but did King James really do better than Arenas? Sure, James scored 38 to Arenas's 33, but LeBron needed 33 shots to get his points while Arenas took only 16. The difference was not in free throws (they each took 8), but in Arenas's astounding 75% shooting from the field. Arenas and James had similar stats in the other phases of the game, and it's hard to claim that James did a much better job at creating offense for his teammates since Arenas had more assists..."

Posted by: blar | Apr 16, 2005 2:59:11 AM

Matt,

I think you're minimizing the importance of having Hughes and Jamison as the 2/3 options. It's not so much that those two played better, but that they are, in fact, better than Drew Gooden and who ever would qualify as the third best player on the Cavs. Who's King James going to create for, Ira Newble?

Lebron did take 33 shots for 38 points, but he made 16 of those shots. If you told any NBA coach you're top perimeter player would shoot 16/33 for the game, they'd be happy with that. Take out James' horrendous 3-point shooting and he shoots 15/28 which is damn good for anybody not named Duncan or O'Neal.

I see where you're coming from, but if you offered the Bullets a straight-up Arenas/James trade tomorrow, just days before the playoffs begin, they take it hands down.

But then again, this and the playoffs is all but a prelude to an A-mazing Spurs-Heat Finals.

Posted by: Cincinnatus | Apr 16, 2005 4:05:14 AM

i like how the previous comment referred to the wizards as the bullets. very retro-cool.

matt, there's not much of a question that the cavs 2nd option (drew gooden?) is not as good as the wizard's 3rd option (hughes/jamison depending on the day). and given that ilgauskas had a broken finger (by watching the game on tv, i was given plenty of information on this finger by bill walton), and also given that mcinnis has been playing awfully as of late, the game really played out as lebron versus 3 very good wizards players. so your dismissal of the "function of supporting cast" argument is not fair, i think.

Posted by: niv | Apr 16, 2005 7:18:26 AM

Having watched LeBron all season, he generally looks more to pass than he does to score, or at least he did earlier in the season when anyone else on the floor could put the ball in the damn basket. Dating back to high school – and that sounds odd since "dating back" means "over two years ago" – he was the same way. He could have easily averaged 50 points per game, but had numbers similar in scope to those he's putting up this season. I do like Arenas, but one thing not on the box score – and Bullet fans, you may have to discredit this - but isn't there a level of the crazy factor with him? LeBron is remarkably level-headed, which to me signals that unless Cavs' owner Dan Gilbert gets busy firing terrible GM Jim Paxson (the man who built the team that sucked so bad it got LeBron, and even then didn't deserve to because it won its final game of the year going into the draft to move into a tie for worst overall ... also the same man who drafted Trajan Langdon, Desagana Diop and Chris Mihm, as well as the oft-injured DeJaun Wagner) and building the team to suit LeBron's wants and needs, then #23 will skip town when his contract ends.

James is at the point now - last night aside - where he seemingly can't miss. Even his three-point percentage is surging. But he doesn't want the load as it presently exists. Like any great player, he welcomes the team on his back. But just like MJ in his early years (50-point games, terrible supporting cast, coach fired), he hasn't yet crossed that critical line. Paxson - or, I hope, a new GM - faces a tough decision in the coming offseason: Choose between locking up Zydrunas Ilgauskas or Jeff McInnis. To me, the choice is a no-brainer: Ditch McInnis and rely on some combo of Eric Snow and LeBron to handle point guard duties next year and lock up the team's second-best player. They will have enough salary cap room to go after their #1 target, Michael Redd, but I fear an all-or-nothing approach will leave the Cavs with no second option and them settling for something less than desired. What they need most is that outside marksman, someone who can bury the three at any given time. Find that and things will open up for LeBron even more. Consistency is the key in the NBA, and there's simply none of that other than LeBron on any given night for the Cavs.

Fans won't recognize the team next year, I think, because Gilbert (and, I guess, fellow owner Usher) is the kind of owner who won't settle for the status quo, especially if its coming from representatives of a previous regime. As for Usher's management style, I'm not sure, other than to say I know he likes Twix and Lil' John.

Posted by: Joseph | Apr 16, 2005 8:27:30 AM

Why does everyone ignore turnovers? For the season it's close between the two, but LBJ had 1 last night, Arenas 3. It's still likely Arenas played better, as that great scoring efficiency is hard to overcome, but it's far more relevant to the discussion than the breakdown of whether the scoring came from 2s, 3s, or free throws. Also, if you're going to include blocks, include steals.

Posted by: Maestro | Apr 16, 2005 9:06:14 AM

"I do like Arenas, but one thing not on the box score – and Bullet fans, you may have to discredit this - but isn't there a level of the crazy factor with him?"

One of things that makes the NBA so compelling to me is that not all crazy is bad. My fave, Iverson, is as crazy as the day is long - but in a good way.

Arenas also seems to be crazy in the right way. He's been getting the job done this year. And he's leading a team that was winning like crazy before injuries hit.

And it's worth noting that some of the most effective players in the association have been crazy, crazy, crazy - like Artest and Rodman. They just have to be able to pull back on their craziness a notch to be able to stay on the floor.

San Antonio, on the other hand, bores the hell out of me, partly because Timmy seems so sane. (Of course, the Republican/Military bent of Popavich is probably a bigger factor in my dislike...)

-----

"Why does everyone ignore turnovers?"

Partly because the league leaders in turnovers usually tend to be among the best players. If you ask a top-notch guard to handle most of a team's ball handling and distribution needs, as well as creating his own shots, he'll end up piling up turnovers.

Check out the list. There are a lot more elite players than purely sloppy players there.

The point guards with high assist/turnover ratios tend to be guards with fewer offensive responsibilities. If all you're being asked to do is feed the post, it's easy to keep your turnovers down.

At the end of the day, a basketball boxscore conveys only very limited information about what's actually going on. If you really like stats, baseball is the game for you. In baseball, the boxscore is truth - too bad the game itself is so goddamn boring. In basketball, you've gotta actually watch to see what's going on - the action is truth.

Posted by: Petey | Apr 16, 2005 9:49:13 AM

I love Arenas, and it's possible (hell, likely) that there are a series of preconstructed stories that reporters fish out when writing up LeBron. So this is mostly just to deflate any incipient "LeBron's all hype" nonsense. People are so excited by James because he's a monster. He's 240(for reference, Jordan came in the league at 185, IIRC), he's quick, he passes really well; I'm not really sure we've seen his like before. Arenas, OTOH, is lightening quick and passes well for a scorer; we see that all the time.

Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Apr 16, 2005 10:05:03 AM

Vince Carter outplayed BOTH Arenas and LeBron last night. He was booed unmercifully in his return to Toronto, but managed to score 39 points (15-26 FG), 9 REBs, 4 ASTs, 3 STLs. And the two best teammates were Kidd (shhoting a typical 5-15) and, um, Brian Scalabrine?

Posted by: Al | Apr 16, 2005 11:54:14 AM

"Vince Carter outplayed BOTH Arenas and LeBron last night."

I watched that game, and while I'm not sure about the "outplaying" part, but Vince did really kick some ass.

It's odd how appealing a character Vince seems in NJ, when he seemed so very unappealing in Toronto.

"And the two best teammates were Kidd (shhoting a typical 5-15) and, um, Brian Scalabrine?"

You forgot Jason Collins, limping around like Chris Webber and making a bunch of big plays.

And by the way, the Sixers are gonna kick your asses on Sunday. Half man, half shut down by Andre Iguodala.

Posted by: Petey | Apr 16, 2005 12:10:32 PM

After reading Matt's post and some of the comments, I checked http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/ (one of the most interesting stats sites) to compare James to Arenas. The result was interesting; Arenas and James play similar minutes (42.1 and 41.2), score at the same pace (25.5 and 24.99 points per 40 min.), have the same scoring efficiency (1.12 PSA) and have similar turnover rates (9.7 and 9.9). The main difference between the two is James higher rebound rate (10.1 to 6.3) and surprisingly, James higher assists ratio (20.7 to 16.5). As usual, it's James versatility what makes him stand out. On the issue of the Cavaliers "crappy" team as compared to the Wizards, the most remarkable thing is that the Cavs have a pretty good trio in James, Gooden and Ilgauskas compared to the Wiz Arenas, Hughes and Jamison. It's the rest of the players where things start to get ugly for Cleveland.

Posted by: Carlos | Apr 16, 2005 1:32:13 PM

By that reasoning on turnovers, we can't look at assists or points either, because they tend to go to the best perimeter players. Obviously we need to put all this stuff in its proper context, but turnovers are a huge part of the game, and ignoring them is a mistake. You're either looking at the whole picture or you're not.

Posted by: Maestro | Apr 16, 2005 5:41:48 PM

Vince Carter was so unappealing in Toronto because, as he told us, he wasn't trying at the end. Fans aren't completely stupid. They can tell when someone isn't really trying.

Posted by: Rambuncle | Apr 16, 2005 5:49:47 PM

Petey,

I don't buy your Popovich as Republican bit. Pop maxed out to John Edwards in '03, and here in SA he has given money to a couple of Dem City Council candidates. Just because a coach preaches discipline doens't necessarily make him a Repub.

Posted by: Cincinnatus | Apr 16, 2005 6:57:39 PM

And by the way, the Sixers are gonna kick your asses on Sunday. Half man, half shut down by Andre Iguodala.

Iggy is really playing well - someone in the Sixers' scouting department really deserves a raise - but he's not shutting down VC tomorrow. And the Sixers are going down. (I know, this ain't the season to be a trash-talking Nets fan - that was the last 3 seasons - but I'm practicing for next year.)

Posted by: Al | Apr 16, 2005 9:42:20 PM

I no longer think of the NBA as having any legitimacy, but with a little luck of the Irish what are the chances that Boston could bring home the big three championships in a single year?

Posted by: theCoach | Apr 17, 2005 12:27:28 AM

"I don't buy your Popovich as Republican bit. Pop maxed out to John Edwards in '03"

I stand corrected, and have a newfound respect for Pop. Whatever else I might think about him, the guy's political judgment is impeccable.

"Just because a coach preaches discipline doens't necessarily make him a Repub."

Perhaps my negative connotations about the franchise and Popavich stem from the David Robinson era...

Posted by: Petey | Apr 17, 2005 8:41:40 AM

"Vince Carter was so unappealing in Toronto because, as he told us, he wasn't trying at the end."

It wasn't just the bad ending of his tenure there.

Even during his lone playoff run in Toronto, I found something very off-putting about Vince. (And that's coming from someone who tends to like almost all the players in the association.) But in New Jersey, I find Vince to be a very sympathetic character, and find myself rooting for him even though his team is in competition with my beloved Sixers.

-----

"I know, this ain't the season to be a trash-talking Nets fan - that was the last 3 seasons - but I'm practicing for next year."

Next year if Kidd is still around...

Posted by: Petey | Apr 17, 2005 8:48:39 AM

It's all in the first names. If James and Arenas traded first names, then everybody would be in love with Lebron Arenas, and Gilbert James would be the second fiddle. They would trade narratives like that.

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