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NHS In Raw Dollars
The slings and arrows of hypocrisy allegations are being flung my way for comparing US and UK health expenditures as percentages of GDP in this post while using raw per capita numbers in a post earlier this week. Got me! Except it doesn't make a difference. The UK spends about 7 percent of GDP on health care to America's about 14 percent, or at least those were the numbers Ezra used. Looking at my GDP per capita table, you'll see that English GDP per capita is about 90 percent of American GDP per capita. So there's a huge disparity between UK and American spending either way you look at it. Using purchasing power parities (usually I'm clear on when it is and is not a good idea to use PPP adjustment for international comparisons, but I'm not sure about this case) the mean United Kingdomite is 70 percent as rich as the mean American -- a bigger gap, but still too small a gap to make up for the difference.
On the general question of raw dollars versus percentage of GDP, I think both have their uses. It makes perfect sense for societies to allocate a higher proportion of their resources to health care as they grow richer -- the extra wealth has to go to something. So it's not a sign of profligacy if, say, rich Iceland turns out to spend a higher proportion of GDP on health care than does relatively poor Portugal. That could be waste and inefficiency, or it could be a reasonable social choice. But. The point of spending a rising portion of GDP on health care as your society grows richer is supposed to be producing better health outcomes. For two countries getting the same health outcomes, the country spending more dollars per capita is doing worse. For two countries spending the same dollars per capita, the one with the worse health outcomes is doing worse. Having a high GDP is not an excuse for high per capita spending in exchange for worse health outcomes, it's a reason for high per capita spending in exchange for better health outcomes.
P.S. On the pseudo-fact that we need to spend so much on health care in order to avoid a doctor shortage, note that doctoring is a guilded profession in the United States that has successfully managed to severely restrict the supply of new doctors by refusing to increase the number of medical schools despite a large increase in the demand for medical services and by constructing a pointlessly arduous residency process. As with any artificially restricted supply, costs go up in response. You could rather simply make it easier for people to become doctors without seriously reducing bona fide training standards (as opposed to weird psychophysical endurance tests).
April 20, 2005 | Permalink
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Comments
It's also worth noting that the artificially restricted supply of doctors problem is further enabled by the practice of dumping an inordinate amount of work on the nurses.
I'd be interested to know how the doctor/nurse relationship differs in other countries.
Posted by: stand | Apr 20, 2005 5:44:44 PM
Both metrics (GDP and raw dollars) have some merit, because some parts of health care spending are sensitive to the level of personal income in the local economy (doctors's and nurses salaries, for example) and others aren't (medicines or equipments for example). A country like Costa Rica has a spending per capita on health care that is 15 times lower than the US, but its health care system is not 15 times worse. It WOULD be 15 times worse if they had to pay their doctors USA type salaries, but they don't. As for the idea that a wealthier society should allocate a bigger share of its wealth to health care, I'm not sure why. It's the Baumol effect you are talking about? Sure, a richer country has to spend its wealth somewhere, but why should it be on health care and not something else?
Posted by: Carlos | Apr 20, 2005 5:51:08 PM
Both metrics (GDP and raw dollars) have some merit, because some parts of health care spending are sensitive to the level of personal income in the local economy (doctors's and nurses salaries, for example) and others aren't (medicines or equipments for example). A country like Costa Rica has a spending per capita on health care that is 15 times lower than the US, but its health care system is not 15 times worse. It WOULD be 15 times worse if they had to pay their doctors USA type salaries, but they don't. As for the idea that a wealthier society should allocate a bigger share of its wealth to health care, I'm not sure why. It's the Baumol effect you are talking about? Sure, a richer country has to spend its wealth somewhere, but why should it be on health care and not something else?
Posted by: Carlos | Apr 20, 2005 5:51:36 PM
Sorry for the double post.
Posted by: Carlos | Apr 20, 2005 5:52:23 PM
Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov would be proud of this post.
Posted by: praktike | Apr 20, 2005 5:53:19 PM
"Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov would be proud of this post."
Sane people recognize that health care requires a bit of socialism to avoid getting a mess like the current American system.
Health care is fundamentally unlike, say, the steel industry.
Posted by: Petey | Apr 20, 2005 6:09:49 PM
Hmmm, will this equivocating post satisfy Adrock?
Not too much to disagree with here, except that I'll just mention something with respect to this:
For two countries getting the same health outcomes, the country spending more dollars per capita is doing worse.
As with all national comparisons, this is only true if the two countries are otherwise in the same positions. However, since there are MANY factors that affect health outcomes beside the amount of money spent and the structure of the healthcare system, these national comparison leave me flat.
Does the US have worse health outcomes because of its geographical size? Ethnic mix? Level of violence? Environmental factors? Tendency to prolong end-of-life periods? Tendency to not abort certain fetuses?
Besides which, I have never heard Matthew explain what he means by "health outcomes". Do we even know that the US has worse "health outcomes"? What are the proper measures of health outcomes? It seems to me that measures like "life expectancy" are just too simplistic to be appropriate measures.
Posted by: Al | Apr 20, 2005 6:16:15 PM
(that was a joke, Petey)
Posted by: praktike | Apr 20, 2005 6:20:28 PM
"(that was a joke, Petey)"
Normally I would've assumed so without a second thought, but I began to doubt you in the Israeli/Palestinian 2000 negotiations thread...
Posted by: Petey | Apr 20, 2005 6:29:19 PM
Matt, I work in research for an academic surgeon, meaning he practices both medicine and basic research. I take issue with your assertion that medecine has "construct[ed] a pointlessly arduous residency process" and that residency is a "weird psychophysical endurance test." As a surgeon he works 75+ hours a week, more than any of his residents and makes $125,000 a year. Now thats way more than I make, but for a oncological surgeon at one of the most prestigious Universities putting in 75 hours a week, I would lean towards saying he is underpaid. Now private doctors do make much more and work much less so you do have a valid point in some regards. However, your point that medical schools have not really increased in number when the demand for doctors has greatly increased is very important. Residents don't work long hours as a hazing ritual, but because there are so few of them and the work has to get done. More med schools = more residents = less hours = better health care
Posted by: Jake | Apr 20, 2005 6:32:12 PM
"Normally I would've assumed so without a second thought, but I began to doubt you in the Israeli/Palestinian 2000 negotiations thread..."
Well, I still haven't gotten an answer on the water issue, and I tend to side with Haggai on the maps issue.
Posted by: praktike | Apr 20, 2005 6:36:33 PM
Al: "These national comparisons leave me flat."
Al? Flat? May wonders never cease.
Posted by: John Emerson | Apr 20, 2005 6:39:18 PM
the mean United Kingdomite is 70 percent as rich as the mean American
Ignoring healthcare issues for a moment and just dwelling on arithmetic:
Is it ever a good idea to use mean figure like this? Is there something about Purchasing Power Parity that eliminates the "Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Paul Allen all move to Chelsea" conundrum?
Posted by: WillieStyle | Apr 20, 2005 7:09:50 PM
Jake touches on something that is not well understood. The fact that "the doctor" is a large part of healthcare expenses does not mean that the money a doctor makes is a large part of healthcare expenses.
In fact, probably the majority of doctors have become trapped in the middle, bearing the burden of their monopoly but not enjoying the benefits.
The monopoly, in fact, is not a monopoly on who can be a doctor so much as it is a monopoly of the gateways to care. To get care, receive medications, purchase a medical device, or get physical therapy, you need a doctor's order. For your treatment to be approved for payment you need a doctor's decision, albeit possibly weakened by straining through layers of bureaucracy.
This is why importing cheaper doctors from abroad does not reduce the expense to the patient.
A similar confusion arises about the drug companies. It's important to them to overcharge for brand name drugs in the U.S., but even more important to make sure we don't simply take a stiff drink to get to sleep, or puff a little pot as an anti-depressant. Controlling the FDA, and being sure that drugs can be barred from approval for no valid reason, is high on their agenda.
I only mention this because as sure as the lord made little green apples you're going to meet someone who says "It's not a monopoly, we import all we need". In one sense they're right, in another very wrong.
Posted by: serial catowner | Apr 20, 2005 7:20:16 PM
On weird psychophysical endurance tests...
I did a little investigation into this last semester for a journalism class and, while recent laws have restricted the hours residents can work, there are still two main rationales for supporting long hours besides the endurance test:
1. The point is to let residents see the continuous progression of treament from admittance, rather than dropping in on a patient whose treatment is somewhere in the middle, or just the beginning.
2. It reduces the number of different physicians handling any particular patient, thus reducing the opportunity for information to get ignored or forgotten during shift changes.
Posted by: Kiril | Apr 20, 2005 7:20:39 PM
Kiril: Staying up for too long makes people really tired. And tired people make more mistakes. This has been documented. Maybe better record keeping (electronic?) would help.
Posted by: Abby | Apr 20, 2005 7:36:08 PM
My understanding is that Doctors aren't actually the reason that health care costs so much. A friend of one of our grad students stayed in the hospital for one day and racked up a $30000 bill, of which he had to pay $6000, or half of his take-home pay for the year. Talk about your co-pays, now that's incentive to keep your medical costs down.
I suspect that the cost of that one day stay is on the order of the sum of my doctor bills over my lifetime.
If there was an under-supply of doctors, I belive they would be making more money. They start out with huge debts and most don't make that much over $100k, and many make less than $100k. Of course Medicare and managed care are artificially keeping their pay down.
Posted by: Eric | Apr 20, 2005 7:56:13 PM
Most records are kept electronically, but your point of tiredness breeding mistakes is well taken. Another aspect that I see in the "shortage" is not in doctors, but in beds and Operating Rooms and especially nurses (who do work 8 hour shifts for the most part, so imagine the resident shortage one would have if they too were limitied to 40 hours a week). Another aspect of longer hours is that it makes most patients nervous to have four different doctors treating them for the same problem. No matter how good the records are, stuff is lost when you play the telephone game for too long.
Posted by: Jake | Apr 20, 2005 8:00:47 PM
From 1990 to 2000, the number of US medical school graduates increased 2 percent from 15,400 to 15,700 grads, according to the AAMC, while the population increased 13% (according to census data). The link to AAMC data is here. That sounds like a guilded profession keeping numbers of grads down, to me.
In terms of training for residencies, I strongly agree that numbers of hours worked per week should be regulated or reduced, for patient safety and resident safety reasons. I also think the medical school admissions process is seriously screwed up (factors such as self-learning, compassion, etc are not taken into account, but MCATs and GPAs are seriously stressed).
It's just plain wrong to artificially keep numbers of docs down (when we have a doctor shortage, especially in primary care).
And for the person who commented that most docs don't make over $100,000, that's not what the numbers show. If you do a search online for physicians' salaries, you'll see that there's no area of medicine (even in primary care) where docs on average make less than $100,000.
Posted by: Anjali | Apr 20, 2005 8:20:02 PM
Problem: MD costs $1 mil (+).
Problem: Too few GPs in non-urban areas.
Attempt to solve: Gov program -- become a doctor, spend as many years as it takes to become one wherever we send you. Then go make a killing.
Sub-program: Medical schools, you want grants? buy into this program.
-- ml
Posted by: Dum Luk's | Apr 20, 2005 8:59:55 PM
I agree with the general point that medicine is over-regulated. There needs to be levels of care, and people should be able to go to a nurse or some such for minor problems and should not have as restricted a drg supply.
I agree completely with this.
Posted by: Glaivester | Apr 20, 2005 9:21:30 PM
1. We already have "backdoor socialism" in American medicine.
You can go to any ER in the country and get free care. Until we are ready to let bleeding patients without insurance die like dogs in the street (can I get a "Praise Jesus" from Al?), our system will remain one of an unfunded mandate by Congress demanding private hospitals give away free care.
2. We are killing our industry with our healthcare system.
Witness today's report of a billion dollar first quarter loss by GM. They blame it on healthcare costs which run more than $5 BILLION per year. The Japanese legally subsidize the healthcare costs of their auto workers making that industry more competitive. Why does Al hate our auto industry?
3. We spend twice as much and get less for our money.
We are not in the top twenty in longevity or infant mortality. The fact that virtually NO western country has as bad a record argues against ethnic factors. And the conservative joke that it's about abortion is nonsense. Prove it. Dead is dead Al, and if you think these stats are flawed, show us numbers to contradict them.
4. Our insurance industry is ripping us off.
Pirates of industry claim that free-market insurance is the best way to pay for healthcare, except they lie. Insurance means high and low risk throw into one pool and the costs average out. But the highest users of healthcare BY FAR, are the poor and the elderly. But (until the recent subsidies by the Bush administration to the insurance industry to get involved in Medicare, which is the dreaded socialism as corporate welfare) no insurer would touch the elderly. Keystone, and a few tried it a few years ago, but ALL bailed out when they started losing money. So the industry position is: let the government pay for the elderly (Medicare) and the poor (Medicaid), and the industry is glad to insure the cherry-picked middle aged, middle class. Capitalism my ass.
5. The biggest lie is that the government shouldn't negotiate drug prices for us.
The federal government DOES negotiate drug prices for millions of Americans. We call it the VA system. A huge federal program that would go bankrupt if they didn't. But for the SENIORS it would be immoral, right Al? Last year 51% of worldwide profits for the drug industry came from the United States. We pay more than the rest of the world combined. Why? Because Pfizer negotiaties with France, as a country, Canada , as a country, and dinky little insurance companies in the US individually (yes Aetna is a dinky little company compared to Pfizer). So who gets the best deal? Not us. We are the biggest purchasers, so we should get the best price. We get THE WORST. Bar none. Because congressmen take buckets of cash from the drug industry and send our dollars to European drug companies. Traitorous.
But the insurers, and the drug industry, and the many, MANY middlemen who feed off our system con the gullible like Al into thinking we are living in the best of all possible worlds.
Oh, well, see you in the O.R. Al, I'm a doctor with 3 kids in college and am getting fat off of your ignorance.
Posted by: epistemology | Apr 20, 2005 9:22:46 PM
Yglesias's last point seems right. It seems to me easing up the restrictions on who can practice would go a long ways to making our system cheaper. Everything I've gone to the doctor for in the last 10 years could have been handled by an experienced nurse, and mostly was.
"our system will remain one of an unfunded mandate by Congress demanding private hospitals give away free care"
Isn't this one way to socialize medicine? Just require hospitals to provide service to all comers, which leads hospitals to spread the cost out among all users? This doesn't seem to be that bad of a method, among all methods to socialize that I've seen.
Posted by: Reg | Apr 20, 2005 9:27:45 PM
Epistomology --
I am on welfare for my disability and pay nothing for my meical care. Not do I pay taxes. I am a conservative because of my strong Christian beliefs.
Bwahahahahaaaaa.......
Posted by: Al | Apr 20, 2005 9:55:09 PM
Having talked to various industry insiders, the biggest problem with health care in America is the lack of transparency. Two questions to illustrate the point: 1) has your primary care physician ever lost a malpractice suit? 2)how much does a simple procedure cost at various local hospitals?
Until these types of questions can be answered easily by normal people I feel that it is unlikely that anything can be "fixed" in our health care system. Once these questions can be answered free markets MAY have a positive effect on prices.
Posted by: jd | Apr 20, 2005 10:22:31 PM
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