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More Commandments

First off, sorry for the lack of posts, I've been away from my internet connection. Obviously, there's a lot more to be said about the ten commandments issue raised below. I think Ezra's written the best follow-up/criticism to my post, making the point that leaders of the Democratic Party have never been leaders on the secularist side of the sort of symbolic issues I'm talking about. Instead, outside groups or, oftentimes, eccentric individuals file lawsuits or otherwise make a big stink. There's nothing Bill Clinton or Harry Reid or whomever else can do to prevent someone who really, really, really doesn't like the idea of the phrase "under God" being in the pledge of allegiance from suing.

There's a bit of a real dilemma here. In the specific case of the pledge, of course, Democrats did try hard to distance themselves from the 9th Circuit's decision, joining with Republicans in a big pledge-reciting on the steps of the Capitol. This wound up being one of those things that don't really help you very much, because I don't think it came across as being sincere. It seemed like there were some conservative politicians genuinely outraged by what the court had done, and some liberal politicians who were willing to give way to political necessity. Now the obvious solution here would be that if more Democratic Senators were, in fact, the sort of people who were genuinely outraged by that kind of thing, but otherwise held to progressive views, then we'd be out of the woods. You would have seen some genuine outrage. In consequence, many liberals would have been genuinely miffed. But liberals would get over it -- nobody on the left thinks these are the really crucial issues. Then, come election day, you've got a few more voters open to progressive ideas on economics, and insofar as Democrats are losing votes on cultural issues they're at least losing votes over issues of genuine consequence.

May 13, 2005 | Permalink

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» Good-Faith Compromise from The Debate Link
Kevin Drum links not once, but twice, to posts dealing with religion in the public square. The latest is a Los Angeles Times editorial by Amy Sullivan criticizing the Republican party for trying to monopolize faith. Sullivan, a Baptist herself, ha... [Read More]

Tracked on May 13, 2005 8:42:14 PM

» The First Amendment MUST be preserved from SocraticGadfly
Matt, most Democratic senators are hypocrites on this issue. Almost as much as they are on the more visible gay rights issue. [Read More]

Tracked on May 14, 2005 5:19:21 PM

» The First Amendment MUST be preserved from SocraticGadfly
Continuing... with Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist numbers continuing to grow, WHOSE prayers get prayed in public? WHOSE scriptures get put on courthouse walls? See any fundies voting for the Quran or the Gita? [Read More]

Tracked on May 14, 2005 5:20:42 PM

» More Commandments from News from Around the World
While we're still young:... [Read More]

Tracked on May 15, 2005 12:57:29 PM

Comments

I gues part of the weirdness here would be that for many years the Jews in Europe and England did "cut a deal". They agreed to the ruling majority setting the rules, purchased licenses or exceptions to those rules, and gradually painted themselves into a corner.

Make no mistake- at one time there were more Jews in London than there were Lollards or Calvinists.

Now, maybe somebody can offer a counterfactual about a minority that accepted minority status and eventually won out. Not my particular field of study.

But when you start with the guarantee that the government shall make NO law respecting the establishment of a religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof- it seems pretty darn craven to be talking about how you can gracefully give up your freedoms and prove you can follow orders.

Count me out.

Posted by: serial catowner | May 13, 2005 7:11:31 PM

Incidentally- "nobody on the left" thinks freedom of religion is a crucial issue? Gee, I guess I didn't get the comrade's marching orders. Does this mean I'm a bad, bad leftist?

Not only do I think religion is a crucial issue, I happen to think that MY religion, which is none of your business thank you, is the RIGHT one, and that eventually all people will share my opinions. Which, curiously enough, is also supported by the evidence from the polls.

Just one of the issues where I'd rather hold 'em than fold 'em.

Posted by: serial catowner | May 13, 2005 7:21:14 PM

It all depends on the interpretation of the establishment clause doesn’t it?

One could reasonably argue that a policy was constitutional unless individuals were actually punished or rewarded by the state for their religious beliefs. Under that interpretation, walking past a TC monument may be offensive to an individual but there would be no harm done.

Democrats need to chose carefully the hill they want to die on. I think Matt is arguing to let the TC monuments go and fight to the death mandatory religious indoctrination in public schools, for example, if it comes to that. They will have broad public support for the latter fight and look like anti-religious scolds on the TC fights.

Posted by: Robert Brown | May 13, 2005 7:32:44 PM

So, if we give in on issues that obviously are of no consequence to us, but highly important to others, we can then get them to vote with us on issues that are highly important to us, but not so important to them?

Is this the logic? Nevermind the Demos are sissies are don't stand up for what they believe in angle.

I disagree with you Matt, and while I think I do agree in terms of the relative importance of the issues, I can't fathom the discursive repurcussions that would ensue from deciding that small religious inroads are just fine. They aren't in principle, and politically, I think the results would be devastating, resulting in more craziness, not an opportunity to discuss what you and I think are important issues.

Posted by: abjectfunk | May 13, 2005 7:35:37 PM

The trick is to find some religiously oriented people with progressive ideas, someone like a practicing Catholic, like maybe ¡¡John Kerry!!. Seriously, until now, every time the Democrats try to move to the right on some issue, the Republicans move further to the right and leave the situation unchanged. The trick would be to move to the right first on some new, unexpected issue that leaves the Republicans in the awkward position of appearing insincere by changing position.

Posted by: Carlos | May 13, 2005 7:37:02 PM

"the Republicans move further to the right and leave the situation unchanged"

But isn't that a good strategy? Get the Rs to move further to the right so the Ds can talk to moderate religious people about income redistribution schemes after they are no longer perceived as stridently anti-religious.

Posted by: Robert Brown | May 13, 2005 7:46:28 PM

Sincerity has to be real. Democrats SINCERELY don't think these things matter very much. You can't fake some other stance.

The truth is that most Republicans do not actually think they matter much, either. Republicans have their eyes on the prize; they watch the money. All the culture issues are just a blanket thrown over Republican policies, which redistribute wealth and income from the poor and middle class to the very wealthy. A few billion here or there is worth a pledge of allegiance, or gay marriage amendment, or any number of other symbolic gestures or impotent feints to the religious right, to Republicans.

But, Democrats, if they want to survive things like controversy over the Ten Commandments in courthouses, have to be willing to step up and call Republicans on BOTH their hypocrisy and their redistributive purposes. Democrats have to say, whether the Ten Commandments is in the Courthouse is not a big deal, should not be a Federal case -- one way or the other, it is not critical to anyone's life, including the eccentric atheist pursuing the lawsuit. Then, the Democrats have to draw a connection: Republicans are trolling for your vote, promising cultural measures, which, either they do not intend to pass or which are purely symbolic, in order to get their hands on your money.

Democrats don't do this. Republican policies, like Social Security privatization, are attributed by Democrats to "ideology." As if! Republicans are redistributing wealth, income and power. Say it loud, say it now, people. If even 10% of Bush voters start to understand how they are being used, to get their money, Democrats will be back in power.

Posted by: Bruce Wilder | May 13, 2005 7:48:23 PM

Now the obvious solution here would be that if more Democratic Senators were, in fact, the sort of people who were genuinely outraged by that kind of thing, but otherwise held to progressive views

That is, if we had Senators who want a theocracy, but a progressive theocracy?

Posted by: bobo brooks | May 13, 2005 7:50:57 PM

Another funny thing is that the Dems actually tried this populist strategy (there- you see?- THAT'S a proper use of 'populist') in 2000. Lieberman voted for the RAVE Act, which banned dancing, Tipper Gore was a bore about something she found disgraceful, they all acted holier-than-thou, and thinking leftwingers walked. Then came all the weeping and wailing about how the Greens didn't support the party. Well, cry me a river.

Some of us are REAL conservatives. We don't think the Federal government should be banning dancing.

The Dems have already done so much putrid stuff I have to hold my nose to vote for them. Don't blame me if pandering to the right means people aren't lining up to vote Democratic.

Posted by: serial catowner | May 13, 2005 7:59:39 PM

I think Matt is arguing to let the TC monuments go and fight to the death mandatory religious indoctrination in public schools, for example, if it comes to that.

Well, actually, MY also blithely dismissed the issue of mandatory school prayer in his original post, so I'm not sure where he'd draw the line. This is not primarily about making atheists comfortable. Didn't anyone go to school with a Jehovah's Witness? They don't recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Let me tell you, those kids always looked so comfortable and serene, being the odd ones out with all other children and the teacher reciting in unison.

And that's the real issue with the Ten Commandments. Judge Moore was making it clear to any religious minority that came into the courthouse that he or she worshipped the wrong god. The express purpose of the monument was to proclaim the preeminence of the judge's religion, even over the Constitution and existing state law. These monuments and displays are just a symptom of that mindset. Now, if they want a "historical" display of lawgiving, with the Magna Carta, the Constitution, the bleedin' Code of Hammurabi, and the Ten Commandments all up there, I'll volunteer to run the refreshment stand. If a judge wants to quote Bible verses in decisions based on the law of the land, I'll toss the confetti. But when they want to put "Jesus is Lord" banners up across the back wall of the courtroom, I'm gonna get a little bit upset.

Posted by: mds | May 13, 2005 8:02:57 PM

Where will you find someone who is able to muster convincingly deep outrage at the loss of some insignificant trinket of ceremonial deism, but is not otherwise inclined to impose a theocracy? A Baha'i temple?

The only reason anyone gives a shit about ceremonial deism is that it's supposed to be symbolic of broader issues of church and state. Wingnut Dominionists will always have the edge over passionate civil libertarians here; I certainly don't understand how someone can have a deep desire to put God on the penny but nowhere else, and I don't think I'm the only person to be so confused.

Posted by: yami | May 13, 2005 8:04:47 PM

In the specific case of the pledge, of course, Democrats did try hard to distance themselves from the 9th Circuit's decision, joining with Republicans in a big pledge-reciting on the steps of the Capitol. This wound up being one of those things that don't really help you very much, because I don't think it came across as being sincere. It seemed like there were some conservative politicians genuinely outraged by what the court had done, and some liberal politicians who were willing to give way to political necessity.

I don't think this is why the Democrats' gesture failed to help them. I think we all too often overlook how the views of a politician's supporters colour the public's perception of said politician. As long as a significant portion of the population are secularists and secularists are overwhelmingly Democrats, then in any public debate, Democratic politicians will be seen as on the secularist side no matter what their public proclamations are. John Kerry must have said he was against gay marriage about a gagillion times. It didn't matter.

While I strongly sympathise with Matt and Kevin Drum, I don't see how the Democratic party can actualy kill these silly controversies. There will always be secularists who feel strongly about creches/ten commandments etc. in public buildings. These people will invetiably make their feelings known and inevitably Democratic politicians will be associated with them in the minds of swing voters everywhere from Ohio to Florida.

The only solution I can think of is a covert campaign to implant "laid-back atheist" subliminal messages in art films and the Daily Show.

Posted by: WillieStyle | May 13, 2005 8:06:44 PM

We as Progressives are missing the larger issue. We must confront abortion. There is no disagreement about the issue of abortion in this country. We as American are in 100% agreement on this issue and Democrats must understand this truth. Progressives must ask two questions: 1) Who among is FOR abortion? and 2) Who among is FOR a total ban on abortion without exception for the life and health of the mother?

No one is FOR abortion. A small fringe is for a total ban on abortion that would give priority to the life of a fetus over the life of the mother. As progressives, we have allowed this issue to be framed by Republicans for their political advantage. We must address it head on.

Posted by: nlacey | May 13, 2005 8:21:45 PM

“Well, actually, MY also blithely dismissed the issue of mandatory school prayer in his original post, so I'm not sure where he'd draw the line”

I believe MY attended a private school. The free exercise clause would make any attempt to stop mandatory prayer unconstitutional.

“Judge Moore was making it clear to any religious minority that came into the courthouse that he or she worshipped the wrong god.”

Moore was clearly looking for a fight and I don’t think any political capital was lost in slapping him down.

That said, I think everyone would know Moores religious beliefs since he campaigned on that. How would a sign saying “Jesus is Lord” in the courtroom make any difference in his perceived bias against nonreligious people? Is anyone really harmed (as opposed to offended) until he actually demonstrates his bias in his rulings?

Posted by: Robert Brown | May 13, 2005 8:31:18 PM

Just an observation:

If you consider Canada (which I think everyone should do, at least once per day!), while we consider ourselves quite a secular country (and statistics support this) a number of our national emblems/institutions have a strong religious aspect.

For example, our head of state, the Queen of England, is also the titular leader of the Anglican Church!

Our national anthem invokes God keeping our land “glorious and free”... (the French version goes further than that, with talk of brandishing crosses).

And yet, nobody here really makes a fuss about this. Nobody cares because, I suppose, there isn't a movement afoot to brand Canada as a “Christian Nation”. Our official line is that we are “multicultural” and while it may not sit well with some, nobody seems to seriously challenge this.

If a religiously fundamentalist movement got serious traction here (and it could still happen), the secularists (or religious pluralists) would probably start fighting tooth and nail for every inch of ground too.

What that says about principles… I don’t know.

It probably says more about Canadians being kinda … peculiar?

Posted by: JonS | May 13, 2005 8:31:52 PM

I think dems should insist on the fact that it is NOT illegal to post the ten commandments, provided it is done in an educational manner, along with the representations of the code of Hamurabi, Justinian etc, etc. In fact, if you look at old buildings and paintings of judicial buildings this is exactly what used to be done. Likewise, it is not illegal to pray in the schools (on your own time).

Frankly, I think that Christmas carols and other religious music, such as black spirituals ought to be allowed, as well, including hymns, as long as songs from other traditions are also included, because this music is historically part of our cultural heritage. I also think the Bible ought to be taught for the same reason. It is a repository of some of the greatest poetry and prose known to man. Ironically, it is the religious fanatics who don't want the Bible taught as secular "literature".

I don't even object to Non-denominational civic prayer of a Unitarian type (although I am not religious myself) because I think children like it (I remember being a child). But unfortunately other people are not so easygoing. And nine times out of ten it is the religious people who make the fuss about these things.

If the religious people would only fight to ban Christmas carols from shopping malls and TV commercials I would have more respect for them as "people of faith."

Posted by: harold | May 13, 2005 8:32:06 PM

Ignorant, ignorant. All "giving in" will do is embolden them, and change the ground the struggle is fought upon. Whatever issue you give in on, tomorrow another little issue will be created by the religious culture warriors. Tomorrow the wingnuts will get stirred up because schoolchildren aren't required to wear crosses, or court personnel don't make the sign of the cross before each court case, or kids aren't required to read the Bible out loud for an hour each day. Will you give in on each of these? If so, then the day after they'll get stirred up because non-believers are allowed to go to school, or because judges aren't allowed to give non-believers longer sentences... whatever you give in on, tomorrow there'll be a completely different minor invented controversy, waiting for you to give in on.

The history of the Pledge is already a series of culture-war losses; you do know the history of the Pledge, don't you? Google it and be amazed.

Appeasement doesn't work.

Posted by: Anon | May 13, 2005 8:49:21 PM

Anon,

Good God! Oops, sorry.

Listen, the “culture wars” are being fought by the fringe right and left (perhaps 10% fanatics on each side). The rest of us have better things to do.

“Tomorrow the wingnuts will get stirred up because schoolchildren aren't required to wear crosses“

Do you seriously think even the most conservative judge would not strike down such a law in a heartbeat? Get real.

Posted by: Robert Brown | May 13, 2005 9:05:14 PM

At least Matthew and Ezra are acknowledging a dilemma entailed in their admirably intended pragmatism. The best answer to this dilemma is to reinforce this newly learned pragmatic footwork with a less slippery foundation -- namely actual idealism -- by directly making a case for cultural liberalism.

If done right, this strategy would dissolve or weaken the ever-available stereotypes of liberals as an over-privileged, over-sheltered, spineless and sequestered tribe in whom cosmopolitanism has supplanted caring about the vulnerability of Main Street communities across America.

The scarlet letter of secularism poisons Democratic candidates at the polls today not primarily because of its own intellectual content, in my view, but because its abstract lawyerly mien conforms to the above stereotype, which in turn reminds voters of the powerlessness they feel about kitchen table issues and distant bureaucracies (corporate and government and educational elites), about globalization and job specialization, and provides a perfect outlet for their now-misplaced anger by voting Republican.

How satisfying (and undertandable) to want to control something tangible in their lives, and to choose an ideology to match, rooted in a traditional way of life they remember. This pain is real. I recall Susan Faludi's admittedly flawed book about men, Stiffed (1999) and its heartbreaking portraits of people without a role in the new economy, like the San Diego longshoremen she met whose jobs were being outsourced. The loss is emotional, not just economic, and that's why Tom Frank's response is inadequate.

One way to instill an alternate emotional image of the meaning of liberalism is to make the case for a liberal cultural value orientation in aggressive but psychologically savvy terms. How exactly to do that is a long, contentious topic -- one aspect might be to develop coherent arguments for of freedom and equality, concepts by which conservatives proudly trumpet American values abroad -- but the fate of John Kerry's candidacy points up the limits of trying to accommodate our way to victory. To his credit, Kerry took some liberal stands, but most everything about his rhetoric was a study in trying to seem tough without seeming liberal (he fled from the word in an entirely unconvincing display).

Posted by: inip | May 13, 2005 9:40:46 PM

Since it's becoming more and more clear that I'm one of the "eccentrics" who actually feels passionately about this, can someone explain to me how to display the Ten Commandments in enumerated form without establishing a religion?

Catholics number them differently from most Protestant denominations. Catholics lump together false gods and graven images (1&2 for Protestants) while Protestants lump together coveting your neighbor's wife with coveting your neighbor's goods (9&10 for Catholics). I may be biased as someone raised Catholic, but the Catholic numbering seems better to me. Coveting your neighbor's wife and goods are qualitatively different, whereas idol-making is just a corollary of worshipping false gods.

Now as a "laid back atheist" it's all just a lot of silliness to me, so I can see why it's the wrong battle to fight and hurts other progressive causes.

But as a former Catholic, I have to admit I'd feel just a little bit unwelcomed entering a courthouse that used the Protestant numbering, or insisted that I swear on a KJV and not a Catholic bible.

I think part of the reason I seem to have a minority within minority view is that while I don't really believe in religion, I believe ardently in the values that humans place in it. The consensus among Matt's supporters is that this is a sort of victimless crime, but in fact it is an attempt to place one people's sacred history ahead of another's.

Posted by: PaulC | May 13, 2005 9:47:32 PM

Sure enough, Moore uses the wrong numbering http://www.onlineathens.com/images/101702/ten.jpg

And as a Catholic, I'm supposed to feel I'll get a fair trial when confronted with this?

Posted by: PaulC | May 13, 2005 10:01:09 PM

"No one is FOR abortion. A small fringe is for a total ban on abortion that would give priority to the life of a fetus over the life of the mother. As progressives, we have allowed this issue to be framed by Republicans for their political advantage. We must address it head on."

The fundamental problem on abortion for the Democratic party, is that you in effect bought the umpire. You got the Supreme court to impose by judicial fiat a fairly extremist pro-choice position. And this has caused everybody who cares about the issue, and who wants a policy that's less extreme, to work together, making the right to life movement enormously more powerful than it would naturally be.

If Roe were overturned, and abortion became a normal political issue, every step the legislatures took in the pro-life direction would cause the right to life movement to hemorage members. Long, long before public policy got anywhere NEAR what the leadership of that movement want, some kind of sensible equilibrium would be reached.

But Roe is apparently untouchable, and so long as it remains intact, that political imballance remains, artificially inflating the clout of the right. Roe being overturned would flat out devestate the Republican party, and their leaders know it. I wonder how long it will take you people to figure that out, though, and decide that Roe isn't worth being permanently in the minority.

Posted by: Brett Bellmore | May 13, 2005 10:01:27 PM

“can someone explain to me how to display the Ten Commandments in enumerated form without establishing a religion?

Um..very simple. Don’t force anyone to follow the commandments. Just because the majority makes it clear what their religious beliefs are by public displays, religion is not established, in my opinion, unless the power of the state is used to reward or punish individuals for their religious beliefs

Posted by: Robert Brown | May 13, 2005 10:03:22 PM

So, Matt and others, why do you think it is an unwinnable battle to make at least some attempt (never really undertaken by liberals that I'm aware) to shape public opinion instead of following it?

You start with a campaign to educate Americans as to what the Commandments actually say, and let it develop from there. It's hard to be accused of attacking religion if that's the strategy. Once people know the contents well, it will be very clear it is primarily a religious display.

Posted by: PaulC | May 13, 2005 10:13:40 PM

I'll skip a detailed response to Robert Brown, since it seems he's conceding the big point that it is a religious display and not a neutral display of the ancient roots of jurisprudence (as usually claimed).

Posted by: PaulC | May 13, 2005 10:20:46 PM

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